4 ms·

Serious question: It feels a little weird to interview somewhere with little intention of accepting the offer (unless it is a huge pay boost / much better posit

by xur17 11y ago

Serious question: It feels a little weird to interview somewhere with little intention of accepting the offer (unless it is a huge pay boost / much better position). I've been at my job just over a year, and enjoy the job / believe I am paid fairly well, but I'd like to see what else is out there (as I'm very flexible on locations, etc). Do I just apply for a few jobs in different areas, and only accept if it's a huge pay boost? Is it wrong to go into the interview like that?

oneshot908 11y ago
Are you an at-will employee? I'll bet that you are one. From: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-definition-30022.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-de... "An at-will employee can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, spelled out below). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination." Now after reading the above sentence, do you still feel weird about this?
- meowface 11y ago
  There are still issues of regular human decency and courtesy. How would you feel if a company interviewed you with absolutely no intention of hiring you, even if you did really well, and was just experimenting with their interview process or training interviewers?
  - phillmv 11y ago
    a) You are not a company. The incentives and the amount of relative power each entity has in this relationship is skewed. A job to you is life changing. To a large enough company, you're just a conversion or churn metric. b) That happens all the time. For instance, in order to get an H1B, a company has to document that they can't fill a given position in the local market. Which you accomplish by putting out hyper specific job ads. If you want to be nice about it, don't pull that game on small startups but that's about it.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - oneshot908 11y ago
    I'd feel I had learned something important about that company and why I should never work for them. And then I'd move on in life rather than dwell on it.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
seiji 11y ago
with little intention of accepting the offer Protip: please only waste interview time at large companies. I've been on the receiving end of having people interview just to "test the waters" at a small company and it's a big drain. We didn't have a formal hiring process or interview pipeline, so your interview process would get a lot of attention from at least 8 different people in a 50 person company. When we send you an offer and you say "lol, nope, just wanted to show an offer so I can negotiate a raise where I already work," it's a big let down for the small team who invested time having 5 people interview you and discussing you and sending all the paperwork through the system.
- oneshot908 11y ago
  Counter pro-tip: don't expect someone to leave their current gig unless it's in their best interest to do. IMO unless someone is absolutely miserable, they shouldn't take a chance on a new and unfamiliar team unless the benefits (at least seemingly) outweigh the risks. Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. Also most recruiters suck (all IMO of course). To which I'll add one final tip: don't ask me my current compensation and don't ask me what it will take to make me move. Instead, just tell me the salary range of the position during the initial phone screen. Problem solved, no?
  - seiji 11y ago
    Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. People keep saying that around here. It's technically true (the best kind of true?) but it's not exactly how the real world works. In the real world (meaning: actual companies, not startups with 2 weeks runway), to fire an individual (mass layoffs are different), you first put them On Notice (a Personal Improvement Plan saying "we, the company, believe you are not a good employee. you have X amount of time to improve"). Next, you wait 6 months. Then you review their progress against their "plan," you find any excuse for them not meeting their plan (plans can be subjective), then you say "Sorry, you're fired, here's a severance package." So, firing an individual involves interdepartmental paperwork, getting legal potentially involved, and a (hopefully not trivial) payout. Mass layoffs are essentially the same except you don't give 3-6 months notice and just immediately unload lots of people at a company, but hopefully still give them a payout. In either case, I think why people throw around "at any time" is they want to convey you should have zero-loyalty towards any employer since they can unilaterally act against you. That is quite true. Never trust your employer to be benevolent towards you and always lookout for yourself before sacrificing things for the benefit of only the company.
x0x0 11y ago
You're giving them a chance. There's nothing wrong with saying up front you want a pay boost and/or a better position. If you tell them this and they proceed, then they're inherently saying such a thing is on offer (or why are they wasting their time?) And if they can't close the deal, that's on them. I think a big chunk of "engineering shortage" (note: no such shortage exists) is companies pissy that they may actually have to exert a tiny bit of effort to hire rather than tossing out a job posting with a long list of desiderata and having qualified engineers flock to them.
ConfuciusSay 11y ago
Companies frequently put out job postings with no intention of hiring anyone. Is that wrong?

by xur17 11y ago

oneshot908 11y ago

Are you an at-will employee? I'll bet that you are one. From: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-definition-30022.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-de... "An at-will employee can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, spelled out below). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination." Now after reading the above sentence, do you still feel weird about this?

meowface 11y ago
There are still issues of regular human decency and courtesy. How would you feel if a company interviewed you with absolutely no intention of hiring you, even if you did really well, and was just experimenting with their interview process or training interviewers?
- phillmv 11y ago
  a) You are not a company. The incentives and the amount of relative power each entity has in this relationship is skewed. A job to you is life changing. To a large enough company, you're just a conversion or churn metric. b) That happens all the time. For instance, in order to get an H1B, a company has to document that they can't fill a given position in the local market. Which you accomplish by putting out hyper specific job ads. If you want to be nice about it, don't pull that game on small startups but that's about it.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- oneshot908 11y ago
  I'd feel I had learned something important about that company and why I should never work for them. And then I'd move on in life rather than dwell on it.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

seiji 11y ago

with little intention of accepting the offer Protip: please only waste interview time at large companies. I've been on the receiving end of having people interview just to "test the waters" at a small company and it's a big drain. We didn't have a formal hiring process or interview pipeline, so your interview process would get a lot of attention from at least 8 different people in a 50 person company. When we send you an offer and you say "lol, nope, just wanted to show an offer so I can negotiate a raise where I already work," it's a big let down for the small team who invested time having 5 people interview you and discussing you and sending all the paperwork through the system.

oneshot908 11y ago
Counter pro-tip: don't expect someone to leave their current gig unless it's in their best interest to do. IMO unless someone is absolutely miserable, they shouldn't take a chance on a new and unfamiliar team unless the benefits (at least seemingly) outweigh the risks. Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. Also most recruiters suck (all IMO of course). To which I'll add one final tip: don't ask me my current compensation and don't ask me what it will take to make me move. Instead, just tell me the salary range of the position during the initial phone screen. Problem solved, no?
- seiji 11y ago
  Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. People keep saying that around here. It's technically true (the best kind of true?) but it's not exactly how the real world works. In the real world (meaning: actual companies, not startups with 2 weeks runway), to fire an individual (mass layoffs are different), you first put them On Notice (a Personal Improvement Plan saying "we, the company, believe you are not a good employee. you have X amount of time to improve"). Next, you wait 6 months. Then you review their progress against their "plan," you find any excuse for them not meeting their plan (plans can be subjective), then you say "Sorry, you're fired, here's a severance package." So, firing an individual involves interdepartmental paperwork, getting legal potentially involved, and a (hopefully not trivial) payout. Mass layoffs are essentially the same except you don't give 3-6 months notice and just immediately unload lots of people at a company, but hopefully still give them a payout. In either case, I think why people throw around "at any time" is they want to convey you should have zero-loyalty towards any employer since they can unilaterally act against you. That is quite true. Never trust your employer to be benevolent towards you and always lookout for yourself before sacrificing things for the benefit of only the company.

x0x0 11y ago

You're giving them a chance. There's nothing wrong with saying up front you want a pay boost and/or a better position. If you tell them this and they proceed, then they're inherently saying such a thing is on offer (or why are they wasting their time?) And if they can't close the deal, that's on them. I think a big chunk of "engineering shortage" (note: no such shortage exists) is companies pissy that they may actually have to exert a tiny bit of effort to hire rather than tossing out a job posting with a long list of desiderata and having qualified engineers flock to them.

ConfuciusSay 11y ago

Companies frequently put out job postings with no intention of hiring anyone. Is that wrong?