5 ms·

IMO Even if you love your current gig, you should interview elsewhere at least once or twice a year to estimate your market value. Do not let your HR departmen

IMO Even if you love your current gig, you should interview elsewhere at least once or twice a year to estimate your market value. Do not let your HR department establish your value for you, they will always sell you short.

xur17 11y ago
Serious question: It feels a little weird to interview somewhere with little intention of accepting the offer (unless it is a huge pay boost / much better position). I've been at my job just over a year, and enjoy the job / believe I am paid fairly well, but I'd like to see what else is out there (as I'm very flexible on locations, etc). Do I just apply for a few jobs in different areas, and only accept if it's a huge pay boost? Is it wrong to go into the interview like that?
- oneshot908 11y ago
  Are you an at-will employee? I'll bet that you are one. From: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-definition-30022.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-de... "An at-will employee can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, spelled out below). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination." Now after reading the above sentence, do you still feel weird about this?
  - meowface 11y ago
    There are still issues of regular human decency and courtesy. How would you feel if a company interviewed you with absolutely no intention of hiring you, even if you did really well, and was just experimenting with their interview process or training interviewers?
    - phillmv 11y ago
      a) You are not a company. The incentives and the amount of relative power each entity has in this relationship is skewed. A job to you is life changing. To a large enough company, you're just a conversion or churn metric. b) That happens all the time. For instance, in order to get an H1B, a company has to document that they can't fill a given position in the local market. Which you accomplish by putting out hyper specific job ads. If you want to be nice about it, don't pull that game on small startups but that's about it.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - oneshot908 11y ago
      I'd feel I had learned something important about that company and why I should never work for them. And then I'd move on in life rather than dwell on it.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- seiji 11y ago
  with little intention of accepting the offer Protip: please only waste interview time at large companies. I've been on the receiving end of having people interview just to "test the waters" at a small company and it's a big drain. We didn't have a formal hiring process or interview pipeline, so your interview process would get a lot of attention from at least 8 different people in a 50 person company. When we send you an offer and you say "lol, nope, just wanted to show an offer so I can negotiate a raise where I already work," it's a big let down for the small team who invested time having 5 people interview you and discussing you and sending all the paperwork through the system.
  - oneshot908 11y ago
    Counter pro-tip: don't expect someone to leave their current gig unless it's in their best interest to do. IMO unless someone is absolutely miserable, they shouldn't take a chance on a new and unfamiliar team unless the benefits (at least seemingly) outweigh the risks. Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. Also most recruiters suck (all IMO of course). To which I'll add one final tip: don't ask me my current compensation and don't ask me what it will take to make me move. Instead, just tell me the salary range of the position during the initial phone screen. Problem solved, no?
    - seiji 11y ago
      Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. People keep saying that around here. It's technically true (the best kind of true?) but it's not exactly how the real world works. In the real world (meaning: actual companies, not startups with 2 weeks runway), to fire an individual (mass layoffs are different), you first put them On Notice (a Personal Improvement Plan saying "we, the company, believe you are not a good employee. you have X amount of time to improve"). Next, you wait 6 months. Then you review their progress against their "plan," you find any excuse for them not meeting their plan (plans can be subjective), then you say "Sorry, you're fired, here's a severance package." So, firing an individual involves interdepartmental paperwork, getting legal potentially involved, and a (hopefully not trivial) payout. Mass layoffs are essentially the same except you don't give 3-6 months notice and just immediately unload lots of people at a company, but hopefully still give them a payout. In either case, I think why people throw around "at any time" is they want to convey you should have zero-loyalty towards any employer since they can unilaterally act against you. That is quite true. Never trust your employer to be benevolent towards you and always lookout for yourself before sacrificing things for the benefit of only the company.
- x0x0 11y ago
  You're giving them a chance. There's nothing wrong with saying up front you want a pay boost and/or a better position. If you tell them this and they proceed, then they're inherently saying such a thing is on offer (or why are they wasting their time?) And if they can't close the deal, that's on them. I think a big chunk of "engineering shortage" (note: no such shortage exists) is companies pissy that they may actually have to exert a tiny bit of effort to hire rather than tossing out a job posting with a long list of desiderata and having qualified engineers flock to them.
- ConfuciusSay 11y ago
  Companies frequently put out job postings with no intention of hiring anyone. Is that wrong?
DaveWalk 11y ago
I can't agree with this; does nobody in the software industry regularly just network? Networking correctly done is all the positives of a job interview without the immediacy of a vacant position being filled. And yes, most of us are probably at-will employees. But I know if word got back that I was interviewing--like when incompetent HR called my current boss for a working reference--I'll be more than just "estimating my market value." Much safer to ask recently promoted people in my network what they used to make; people often share this information easily, versus never sharing what they make now.
- ScottWhigham 11y ago
  I can't understand why your comment would be downvoted. User group meetings, conferences, dev get-togethers are all ideal for talking to people about what OP suggests: "estimate your market value". Please job interviewing just sucks the life out of anyone - it is absolutely no fun for all parties. Why make 1-2 days of your life suck per year just to "estimate your market value" when there are more fun ways to do it?
  - oneshot908 11y ago
    For me, it's only "no fun" when HR sends an absolute fool with the right keywords on their resume to me (which is what they usually do). It's a lot like dating unfortunately. In an age where variants of "FizzBuzz" are too hard for most interviewees to answer, it's an absolute joy to meet someone competent and make them an offer. YMMV. Neither conferences nor meetups have ever worked that way for me. They're great for getting intel on the competition and catching up with friends, but we don't talk compensation much.

xur17 11y ago

Serious question: It feels a little weird to interview somewhere with little intention of accepting the offer (unless it is a huge pay boost / much better position). I've been at my job just over a year, and enjoy the job / believe I am paid fairly well, but I'd like to see what else is out there (as I'm very flexible on locations, etc). Do I just apply for a few jobs in different areas, and only accept if it's a huge pay boost? Is it wrong to go into the interview like that?

oneshot908 11y ago
Are you an at-will employee? I'll bet that you are one. From: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-definition-30022.html http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/employment-at-will-de... "An at-will employee can be fired at any time, for any reason (except for a few illegal reasons, spelled out below). If the employer decides to let you go, that's the end of your job--and you have very limited legal rights to fight your termination." Now after reading the above sentence, do you still feel weird about this?
- meowface 11y ago
  There are still issues of regular human decency and courtesy. How would you feel if a company interviewed you with absolutely no intention of hiring you, even if you did really well, and was just experimenting with their interview process or training interviewers?
  - phillmv 11y ago
    a) You are not a company. The incentives and the amount of relative power each entity has in this relationship is skewed. A job to you is life changing. To a large enough company, you're just a conversion or churn metric. b) That happens all the time. For instance, in order to get an H1B, a company has to document that they can't fill a given position in the local market. Which you accomplish by putting out hyper specific job ads. If you want to be nice about it, don't pull that game on small startups but that's about it.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - oneshot908 11y ago
    I'd feel I had learned something important about that company and why I should never work for them. And then I'd move on in life rather than dwell on it.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
seiji 11y ago
with little intention of accepting the offer Protip: please only waste interview time at large companies. I've been on the receiving end of having people interview just to "test the waters" at a small company and it's a big drain. We didn't have a formal hiring process or interview pipeline, so your interview process would get a lot of attention from at least 8 different people in a 50 person company. When we send you an offer and you say "lol, nope, just wanted to show an offer so I can negotiate a raise where I already work," it's a big let down for the small team who invested time having 5 people interview you and discussing you and sending all the paperwork through the system.
- oneshot908 11y ago
  Counter pro-tip: don't expect someone to leave their current gig unless it's in their best interest to do. IMO unless someone is absolutely miserable, they shouldn't take a chance on a new and unfamiliar team unless the benefits (at least seemingly) outweigh the risks. Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. Also most recruiters suck (all IMO of course). To which I'll add one final tip: don't ask me my current compensation and don't ask me what it will take to make me move. Instead, just tell me the salary range of the position during the initial phone screen. Problem solved, no?
  - seiji 11y ago
    Remember, you can fire them at any time, with or without cause. People keep saying that around here. It's technically true (the best kind of true?) but it's not exactly how the real world works. In the real world (meaning: actual companies, not startups with 2 weeks runway), to fire an individual (mass layoffs are different), you first put them On Notice (a Personal Improvement Plan saying "we, the company, believe you are not a good employee. you have X amount of time to improve"). Next, you wait 6 months. Then you review their progress against their "plan," you find any excuse for them not meeting their plan (plans can be subjective), then you say "Sorry, you're fired, here's a severance package." So, firing an individual involves interdepartmental paperwork, getting legal potentially involved, and a (hopefully not trivial) payout. Mass layoffs are essentially the same except you don't give 3-6 months notice and just immediately unload lots of people at a company, but hopefully still give them a payout. In either case, I think why people throw around "at any time" is they want to convey you should have zero-loyalty towards any employer since they can unilaterally act against you. That is quite true. Never trust your employer to be benevolent towards you and always lookout for yourself before sacrificing things for the benefit of only the company.
x0x0 11y ago
You're giving them a chance. There's nothing wrong with saying up front you want a pay boost and/or a better position. If you tell them this and they proceed, then they're inherently saying such a thing is on offer (or why are they wasting their time?) And if they can't close the deal, that's on them. I think a big chunk of "engineering shortage" (note: no such shortage exists) is companies pissy that they may actually have to exert a tiny bit of effort to hire rather than tossing out a job posting with a long list of desiderata and having qualified engineers flock to them.
ConfuciusSay 11y ago
Companies frequently put out job postings with no intention of hiring anyone. Is that wrong?

DaveWalk 11y ago

I can't agree with this; does nobody in the software industry regularly just network? Networking correctly done is all the positives of a job interview without the immediacy of a vacant position being filled. And yes, most of us are probably at-will employees. But I know if word got back that I was interviewing--like when incompetent HR called my current boss for a working reference--I'll be more than just "estimating my market value." Much safer to ask recently promoted people in my network what they used to make; people often share this information easily, versus never sharing what they make now.

ScottWhigham 11y ago
I can't understand why your comment would be downvoted. User group meetings, conferences, dev get-togethers are all ideal for talking to people about what OP suggests: "estimate your market value". Please job interviewing just sucks the life out of anyone - it is absolutely no fun for all parties. Why make 1-2 days of your life suck per year just to "estimate your market value" when there are more fun ways to do it?
- oneshot908 11y ago
  For me, it's only "no fun" when HR sends an absolute fool with the right keywords on their resume to me (which is what they usually do). It's a lot like dating unfortunately. In an age where variants of "FizzBuzz" are too hard for most interviewees to answer, it's an absolute joy to meet someone competent and make them an offer. YMMV. Neither conferences nor meetups have ever worked that way for me. They're great for getting intel on the competition and catching up with friends, but we don't talk compensation much.