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oh goodness yes In my early twenties I would occasionally drive home “tipsy” — what felt like tipsy at the time; in retrospect, I was as drunk as a skunk. But

oh goodness yes In my early twenties I would occasionally drive home “tipsy” — what felt like tipsy at the time; in retrospect, I was as drunk as a skunk. But there were no alternatives! I lived in a spread out western city, taxis were unheard of. Threats and punishments don’t work on young people who have a psychological sense of invulnerability. The best way to curb drunk driving is through practical solutions that have immediate and obvious effectiveness. All that said, I’m impressed with the psychology behind this program, and it’s nice to see policy that aims at curbing and solving destructive behavior instead of profiting off it in the form of fines.

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> But there were no alternatives! Are you seriously suggesting you had no better alternative than to drive drunk? There were at least three alternatives available: Don't drink, get a ride with someone sober, or walk/bike/etc.
- mentat 11y ago
  No alternatives within the acceptable cost window from his perspective. Of course there are alternatives, sleep on the street, whatever. But those aren't real when making impaired decisions.
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    > But those aren't real when making impaired decisions. The comment I replied to was, presumably, written while unimpaired and with the benefit of hindsight.
  - tene 11y ago
    That's why you make the decision to not get impaired in the first place, when deciding not to drink because there's no safe way to get home if you do. "If I drink this alcohol, I will then drink even more, followed by a nontrivial chance of murdering someone while trying to get home" should not be considered a choice that's acceptable to get wrong.
    - msandford 11y ago
      I've gone out for a few beers with co-workers and found myself having had a few more than I meant to on a couple of occasions. It's entirely possible to end up in no shape to drive with absolutely no ill intent. To argue "but you knew when you were drinking that 3rd beer!!..." is all well and good, but the point of going out is to enjoy your friends company and have fun, not carefully monitor your alcohol consumption. The lack of taxis, buses, trains, etc in many states is a major contributor to drunk driving.
      - tene 11y ago
        Huh. Looks like I misunderstood "occasionally" in the ancestor as "regularly". Yes, accidents absolutely can happen.
      - arrrg 11y ago
        Just don’t drink at all when you drive? I don’t know why you think it acceptable to drink anything at all before driving. I think it’s unacceptable for me to drink anything at all when I plan on driving. That way I have never ever been in a situation where I had to drive while being drunk. It’s a quite simple heuristic …
        msandford 11y ago
        You're right, nobody should drink ever because they might at some point in the future have to drive. Problem solved! I think it's acceptable to drink some amount before driving because I understand the physiological processes that turn alcohol into not-alcohol and therefore that at some point after I drink, I will be OK to drive. If that wasn't the case then having a drink would be a big decision, after which a person could never drive a car again. The question is proximity. If we go for a few beers and then walk next door and have dinner (without beers) then I think it's safe to drive home. An hour drinking two beers, an hour eating dinner, and there should be little to no alcohol left in your system when you drive. Fine upstanding citizens do this all the time.
- spacehome 11y ago
  Drunk biking is illegal in many jurisdictions.
- x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
  Walking and biking are not always options, especially when you can get a DUI for riding a bike drunk or a drunk-and-disorderly for being drunk in public (on your walk home).
- cryptophreak 11y ago
  From the standpoint of understanding human behavior at scale, the alternatives you offered are unworkable. People are going to drink, they are going to do it in social environments beyond their homes, and they are going to return to their homes. A realistic solution involves recognizing these centuries-old truths and minimizing the inherent risk. Water flows downhill, and hitting it with a stick won’t change that.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

> But there were no alternatives! Are you seriously suggesting you had no better alternative than to drive drunk? There were at least three alternatives available: Don't drink, get a ride with someone sober, or walk/bike/etc.

mentat 11y ago
No alternatives within the acceptable cost window from his perspective. Of course there are alternatives, sleep on the street, whatever. But those aren't real when making impaired decisions.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > But those aren't real when making impaired decisions. The comment I replied to was, presumably, written while unimpaired and with the benefit of hindsight.
- tene 11y ago
  That's why you make the decision to not get impaired in the first place, when deciding not to drink because there's no safe way to get home if you do. "If I drink this alcohol, I will then drink even more, followed by a nontrivial chance of murdering someone while trying to get home" should not be considered a choice that's acceptable to get wrong.
  - msandford 11y ago
    I've gone out for a few beers with co-workers and found myself having had a few more than I meant to on a couple of occasions. It's entirely possible to end up in no shape to drive with absolutely no ill intent. To argue "but you knew when you were drinking that 3rd beer!!..." is all well and good, but the point of going out is to enjoy your friends company and have fun, not carefully monitor your alcohol consumption. The lack of taxis, buses, trains, etc in many states is a major contributor to drunk driving.
    - tene 11y ago
      Huh. Looks like I misunderstood "occasionally" in the ancestor as "regularly". Yes, accidents absolutely can happen.
    - arrrg 11y ago
      Just don’t drink at all when you drive? I don’t know why you think it acceptable to drink anything at all before driving. I think it’s unacceptable for me to drink anything at all when I plan on driving. That way I have never ever been in a situation where I had to drive while being drunk. It’s a quite simple heuristic …
      - msandford 11y ago
        You're right, nobody should drink ever because they might at some point in the future have to drive. Problem solved! I think it's acceptable to drink some amount before driving because I understand the physiological processes that turn alcohol into not-alcohol and therefore that at some point after I drink, I will be OK to drive. If that wasn't the case then having a drink would be a big decision, after which a person could never drive a car again. The question is proximity. If we go for a few beers and then walk next door and have dinner (without beers) then I think it's safe to drive home. An hour drinking two beers, an hour eating dinner, and there should be little to no alcohol left in your system when you drive. Fine upstanding citizens do this all the time.
spacehome 11y ago
Drunk biking is illegal in many jurisdictions.
x3n0ph3n3 11y ago
Walking and biking are not always options, especially when you can get a DUI for riding a bike drunk or a drunk-and-disorderly for being drunk in public (on your walk home).
cryptophreak 11y ago
From the standpoint of understanding human behavior at scale, the alternatives you offered are unworkable. People are going to drink, they are going to do it in social environments beyond their homes, and they are going to return to their homes. A realistic solution involves recognizing these centuries-old truths and minimizing the inherent risk. Water flows downhill, and hitting it with a stick won’t change that.