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> a large company behind them. Scala, Clojure and Groovy are doing fine You do know VMware/Pivotal pulled their support for Groovy in March this year and no-on

by vorg 11y ago

> a large company behind them. Scala, Clojure and Groovy are doing fine You do know VMware/Pivotal pulled their support for Groovy in March this year and no-one else stepped in, don't you?

pron 11y ago
Yes. None of them has a large company behind it, and none of them is within two orders-of-magnitude from the leading batch of languages (the leading pack has 5-10M developers each). Maybe Scala is, but even Scala certainly isn't within one order-of-magnitude.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  None of them has a large company behind it, and none of them is within two orders-of-magnitude from the leading batch of languages (the leading pack has 5-10M developers each). So? I'm not making a claim that a language needs adoption on that scale to be considered "successful". To me, Ruby, PHP, Python, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, etc. are all very much "successful". The languages I think of as being less so, would be things like Nice, Fantom, Frege, Forth, Modula-3, Rebol, etc.
mindcrime 11y ago
You do know VMware/Pivotal pulled their support for Groovy in March this year and no-one else stepped in, don't you? I do, but I also know that Groovy is becoming an ASF project[1]. So we'll see how it goes with volunteer support, and perhaps a few paid people here and there from companies that use Groovy. [1]: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/groovy.html http://incubator.apache.org/projects/groovy.html
- vorg 11y ago
  > Groovy is becoming an ASF project Groovy has lingering problems in migrating to builds.apache.org, see [1]. Some of the Groovy despots from Codehaus times (I wouldn't know which ones specifically) are keeping some computing machinery physically separated from the Apache infrastructure to run their own build processes, going against Apache guidelines. Some of them also have control over the groovy-lang.org domain (again, I don't know who). I suspect Groovy won't ever become an ASF project, but instead just sit it out in the incubation system until the former Codehaus Groovy despots get a better deal where they don't have to share their control democratically with the ASF. They managed to keep Groovy in the Java Community Process for 9 years before being booted out, all the while using the JSR-241 to promote themselves, so they'd think nothing of leeching on Apache's incubator for just as long before stirring up conflict later on to get booted out when it suits them. BTW, that link [1] to Nabble's Groovy mailing list archive was recently redirected to an embedded view within the groovy-lang.org website where they can collect IP addresses, and all that implies -- another indictment of the Groovy despots longstanding intention to control and instead of sharing. [1] http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Jenkins-Groovy-Apache-etc-td5726904.html http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Jenkins-Groovy-Apache-etc...

by vorg 11y ago

> a large company behind them. Scala, Clojure and Groovy are doing fine You do know VMware/Pivotal pulled their support for Groovy in March this year and no-one else stepped in, don't you?

pron 11y ago

Yes. None of them has a large company behind it, and none of them is within two orders-of-magnitude from the leading batch of languages (the leading pack has 5-10M developers each). Maybe Scala is, but even Scala certainly isn't within one order-of-magnitude.

mindcrime 11y ago
None of them has a large company behind it, and none of them is within two orders-of-magnitude from the leading batch of languages (the leading pack has 5-10M developers each). So? I'm not making a claim that a language needs adoption on that scale to be considered "successful". To me, Ruby, PHP, Python, Groovy, Scala, Clojure, etc. are all very much "successful". The languages I think of as being less so, would be things like Nice, Fantom, Frege, Forth, Modula-3, Rebol, etc.

mindcrime 11y ago

You do know VMware/Pivotal pulled their support for Groovy in March this year and no-one else stepped in, don't you? I do, but I also know that Groovy is becoming an ASF project[1]. So we'll see how it goes with volunteer support, and perhaps a few paid people here and there from companies that use Groovy. [1]: http://incubator.apache.org/projects/groovy.html http://incubator.apache.org/projects/groovy.html

vorg 11y ago
> Groovy is becoming an ASF project Groovy has lingering problems in migrating to builds.apache.org, see [1]. Some of the Groovy despots from Codehaus times (I wouldn't know which ones specifically) are keeping some computing machinery physically separated from the Apache infrastructure to run their own build processes, going against Apache guidelines. Some of them also have control over the groovy-lang.org domain (again, I don't know who). I suspect Groovy won't ever become an ASF project, but instead just sit it out in the incubation system until the former Codehaus Groovy despots get a better deal where they don't have to share their control democratically with the ASF. They managed to keep Groovy in the Java Community Process for 9 years before being booted out, all the while using the JSR-241 to promote themselves, so they'd think nothing of leeching on Apache's incubator for just as long before stirring up conflict later on to get booted out when it suits them. BTW, that link [1] to Nabble's Groovy mailing list archive was recently redirected to an embedded view within the groovy-lang.org website where they can collect IP addresses, and all that implies -- another indictment of the Groovy despots longstanding intention to control and instead of sharing. [1] http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Jenkins-Groovy-Apache-etc-td5726904.html http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Jenkins-Groovy-Apache-etc...