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The reason others are concerned about this while you are not is that many people regard this proposition as wildly incorrect: > men have struggles just the sam

The reason others are concerned about this while you are not is that many people regard this proposition as wildly incorrect: > men have struggles just the same Yes, men and women both have struggles. But many believe (including myself) that women face many more challenges by virtue of being women, than men do by virtue of being men. Women are more likely to be sexualized in work (and any other) environments, their reactions to events are more likely to be described as "emotional" or "irrational," they are widely considered (without evidence) to be inferior to men in fields like math and science, etc. Don't forget: until relatively recently, women were widely regarded (in both law and society) as the property or either their father or, once married, husband. This is still the prevailing view in much of the world. And debates like this still go on: http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-women-the-property-of-their-husbands http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-women-the-property-of-the... Under these conditions, it seems natural to expect that women face a lot of unique challenges, to put it mildly--and that expectation is indeed born out by the actual experiences of many women. Discussing these issues is important because it is a crucial part of our shared efforts to eliminate these phenomenon.

eonw 11y ago
that's all fine and dandy, but no one is bitching about the fact we have very very very few men working in the child care industry, for instance... better start subsidizing their jobs too? men and women were both given the same choice of universities and classes in high school. the tech sector did not turn its back on women or minorities, they turned their back on it. now that its profitable they want a piece of that pie.
- zorpner 11y ago
  It's exhausting to keep having this same conversation over and over, but I suppose that's the purpose of comments like yours. Look at the graduation rates for women and minorities from CS programs; then look at the industry participation rates, particularly over time and particularly with reference to seniority. They're not turning their back on tech, they're being driven out.
  - kelukelugames 11y ago
    It is exhausting and frustrating. We need to store copy pasta for these conversation. Maybe I will compile a list.
  - htns 11y ago
    Looking at women's CS graduation rates means nothing if you don't look at overall graduation rates. I have yet to see any proof that women are really being driven out from CS rather than being driven into some other field.
    - pdabbadabba 11y ago
      True enough. But I don't think everything is necessarily A-OK so long as women are landing in some other field. It is also important why women are being driven away from CS (whether into some other field or not).
- beachstartup 11y ago
  it's always been profitable. but now it's socially acceptable, even prestigious depending on your role. big difference.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Yes, I am all for greater male participation in the child-care industry. (I really am!) So say we all. Are you satisfied? Will you now please join us on in constructively discussing the exclusion of women from tech, law, science, politics, accounting, carpentry, the military... and how to fix it? If the child care industry were representative of men's exclusion from most high paying, socially powerful fields, then I would expect the 'bitching' to begin. But, as it is, the child-care field is not a field that a lot of men would like to get into, it pays fairly poorly, (unfortunately) confers little power or respect, and is largely an anomaly in an economy where most jobs, especially powerful ones are dominated by men. The "confers little power and respect" bit, by the way, seems to be true of most woman-dominated fields (child care, teaching, nursing...). Do you suppose this is a coincidence?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > But, as it is, the child-care field is not a field that a lot of men would like to get into, it pays fairly poorly, (unfortunately) confers little power or respect, and is largely an anomaly in an economy where most jobs, especially powerful ones are dominated by men. Its actually not really an anomaly for jobs that pay fairly poorly and confer little power or respect to be dominated by women and/or persistently disadvantaged minorities. (It's really part of the same effect as jobs that pay well and confer power and respect being dominated by white men.)
    - eonw 11y ago
      oh this is a copout! there are many low wage job categories dominated by men... garbage collection, construction(low level), shipping, commercial kitchens, yard work, i could go on and on. none of which get neither money nor respect.
  - Fratercula 11y ago
    why should someone engage with you when you are already convinced you are right?
- jameshart 11y ago
  Yes, people are bitching about the lack of men in childcare. Go seek out child development communities online and see them wrestling with the problem! See men who try to et into childcare complain that they are assumed to be incapable of working in early-years education because they might be a pedophile! It's a huge problem, and one we should get upset about. On teaching and child development forums these exact issues are discussed. But this is hacker news. A site for people in the tech industry, not the childcare industry. We can and should care about representation and participation and opportunity in our industry. We can do something about it here.
  - eonw 11y ago
    interesting, i was unaware of a movement in childcare to get more men involved. i do think it similar to tech, in that(historically) if a man said he wanted to run a daycare for a career, it would have raised eyebrows. just as a woman saying she wanted to be a software engineer might have at a time. that said, in the above reference. the man would still, to this day, get a lot of strange looks for picking that as a career choice, whereas the woman would not.
    - jameshart 11y ago
      In spite of the fact that countless surveys and specific women regularly report that they often still face difficulties being accepted as techies, both by male technical peers, and by nontechnical people, and that they are persuaded against going into technology by both explicit advice from family, teachers and role models, as well as cultural expectations and media images, you're saying you think that women don't get "strange looks" for picking software engineering as a career any more? Why do you think women feel the need to create websites like this (https://mixpanel.com/i-am-tech/ https://mixpanel.com/i-am-tech/) in the first place if the idea of being a woman in tech is only "historically" eyebrow-raising? The assumption that sexism is, like racism, one of those things that people used to do in the 1950s, is really not helpful.
      - eonw 11y ago
        you are assuming that men don't also face this issue or similar? not dressing hipster enough, not being a mac fanboy, being older then the rest of your team, preferring one programming language over another, etc. Men have issues as well, and I've seen men catch much worse hell at work in IT then any woman i have worked with. until you have worn another's shoes, you cant state that they have it any easier with any more certainty then picking a keno ticket.
- DanBC 11y ago
  > but no one is bitching about the fact we have very very very few men working in the child care industry, for instance Don't lie. A simple websearch returns very many hits for people talking about the shortage of men in pre-school and primary school education.
no1ne 11y ago
let me ask you this simple question, whether you take it in context or not is upto you :) ... do you really think and know I might add, that there are no differences between men and women? especially in their brains??
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  I am sure there are differences. But I do not assume, like some, that these differences -- whatever they are -- coincidentally make women worse at the tasks that our society deems economically and politically important.
- braythwayt 11y ago
  There may well be differences. So what I do about that is this: I scan my wall for my certifications in neuroscience. None there. I then scan my recollection for serious papers written about the subject, with results that have been reproduced and represent the consensus view of scientists working in the field. None again. Therefore, I conclude that my debating whether men's brains are different than women's brains would be an exercise in ignorance, much like those politicians who "proved" there is no global warming by brandishing a snowball.
exstudent2 11y ago
> But many believe (including myself) that women face many more challenges by virtue of being women, than men do by virtue of being men. That's absolutely a position you can only take because of your own privilege. Lower income men face arguably the worst discrimination available in the US since they are way over represented in our prisons. I don't think trying to determine which of the sexes has it "worse" is in anyway a winning proposition or something anyone should be doing.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  Hold the phone! I didn't say that all women have it worse than all men. I totally agree that gender is just one of many factors that gives some people unfair advantages and other unfair disadvantages. My only claim is that being a woman tends to be a disadvantage in the same way that being poor or being black tends to be a disadvantage. It obviously is the case that the advantage/disadvantage conferred by one trait (here, gender) is conditioned by other factors. So, it might be that upper-income white women are more disadvantaged relative to upper-income white men, compared to the relative disadvantage of lower-income white women with respect to lower income white men. This certainly seems like a real possibility given, as you say, the unreasonably high incarceration rate of lower-income men. (Though I'm not sure I'm ready to commit one way or the other on who has it worse. I just don't know enough about the lives of lower-income women, frankly.) Given that we were talking about the software industry, though, it seemed reasonable to relativize the conversation to, broadly speaking, middle/upper income people.
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    You said this statement: > men have struggles just the same Was wildly incorrect. It is not.

eonw 11y ago

that's all fine and dandy, but no one is bitching about the fact we have very very very few men working in the child care industry, for instance... better start subsidizing their jobs too? men and women were both given the same choice of universities and classes in high school. the tech sector did not turn its back on women or minorities, they turned their back on it. now that its profitable they want a piece of that pie.

zorpner 11y ago
It's exhausting to keep having this same conversation over and over, but I suppose that's the purpose of comments like yours. Look at the graduation rates for women and minorities from CS programs; then look at the industry participation rates, particularly over time and particularly with reference to seniority. They're not turning their back on tech, they're being driven out.
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  It is exhausting and frustrating. We need to store copy pasta for these conversation. Maybe I will compile a list.
- htns 11y ago
  Looking at women's CS graduation rates means nothing if you don't look at overall graduation rates. I have yet to see any proof that women are really being driven out from CS rather than being driven into some other field.
  - pdabbadabba 11y ago
    True enough. But I don't think everything is necessarily A-OK so long as women are landing in some other field. It is also important why women are being driven away from CS (whether into some other field or not).
beachstartup 11y ago
it's always been profitable. but now it's socially acceptable, even prestigious depending on your role. big difference.
pdabbadabba 11y ago
Yes, I am all for greater male participation in the child-care industry. (I really am!) So say we all. Are you satisfied? Will you now please join us on in constructively discussing the exclusion of women from tech, law, science, politics, accounting, carpentry, the military... and how to fix it? If the child care industry were representative of men's exclusion from most high paying, socially powerful fields, then I would expect the 'bitching' to begin. But, as it is, the child-care field is not a field that a lot of men would like to get into, it pays fairly poorly, (unfortunately) confers little power or respect, and is largely an anomaly in an economy where most jobs, especially powerful ones are dominated by men. The "confers little power and respect" bit, by the way, seems to be true of most woman-dominated fields (child care, teaching, nursing...). Do you suppose this is a coincidence?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > But, as it is, the child-care field is not a field that a lot of men would like to get into, it pays fairly poorly, (unfortunately) confers little power or respect, and is largely an anomaly in an economy where most jobs, especially powerful ones are dominated by men. Its actually not really an anomaly for jobs that pay fairly poorly and confer little power or respect to be dominated by women and/or persistently disadvantaged minorities. (It's really part of the same effect as jobs that pay well and confer power and respect being dominated by white men.)
  - eonw 11y ago
    oh this is a copout! there are many low wage job categories dominated by men... garbage collection, construction(low level), shipping, commercial kitchens, yard work, i could go on and on. none of which get neither money nor respect.
- Fratercula 11y ago
  why should someone engage with you when you are already convinced you are right?
jameshart 11y ago
Yes, people are bitching about the lack of men in childcare. Go seek out child development communities online and see them wrestling with the problem! See men who try to et into childcare complain that they are assumed to be incapable of working in early-years education because they might be a pedophile! It's a huge problem, and one we should get upset about. On teaching and child development forums these exact issues are discussed. But this is hacker news. A site for people in the tech industry, not the childcare industry. We can and should care about representation and participation and opportunity in our industry. We can do something about it here.
- eonw 11y ago
  interesting, i was unaware of a movement in childcare to get more men involved. i do think it similar to tech, in that(historically) if a man said he wanted to run a daycare for a career, it would have raised eyebrows. just as a woman saying she wanted to be a software engineer might have at a time. that said, in the above reference. the man would still, to this day, get a lot of strange looks for picking that as a career choice, whereas the woman would not.
  - jameshart 11y ago
    In spite of the fact that countless surveys and specific women regularly report that they often still face difficulties being accepted as techies, both by male technical peers, and by nontechnical people, and that they are persuaded against going into technology by both explicit advice from family, teachers and role models, as well as cultural expectations and media images, you're saying you think that women don't get "strange looks" for picking software engineering as a career any more? Why do you think women feel the need to create websites like this (https://mixpanel.com/i-am-tech/ https://mixpanel.com/i-am-tech/) in the first place if the idea of being a woman in tech is only "historically" eyebrow-raising? The assumption that sexism is, like racism, one of those things that people used to do in the 1950s, is really not helpful.
    - eonw 11y ago
      you are assuming that men don't also face this issue or similar? not dressing hipster enough, not being a mac fanboy, being older then the rest of your team, preferring one programming language over another, etc. Men have issues as well, and I've seen men catch much worse hell at work in IT then any woman i have worked with. until you have worn another's shoes, you cant state that they have it any easier with any more certainty then picking a keno ticket.
DanBC 11y ago
> but no one is bitching about the fact we have very very very few men working in the child care industry, for instance Don't lie. A simple websearch returns very many hits for people talking about the shortage of men in pre-school and primary school education.

no1ne 11y ago

let me ask you this simple question, whether you take it in context or not is upto you :) ... do you really think and know I might add, that there are no differences between men and women? especially in their brains??

pdabbadabba 11y ago
I am sure there are differences. But I do not assume, like some, that these differences -- whatever they are -- coincidentally make women worse at the tasks that our society deems economically and politically important.
braythwayt 11y ago
There may well be differences. So what I do about that is this: I scan my wall for my certifications in neuroscience. None there. I then scan my recollection for serious papers written about the subject, with results that have been reproduced and represent the consensus view of scientists working in the field. None again. Therefore, I conclude that my debating whether men's brains are different than women's brains would be an exercise in ignorance, much like those politicians who "proved" there is no global warming by brandishing a snowball.

exstudent2 11y ago

> But many believe (including myself) that women face many more challenges by virtue of being women, than men do by virtue of being men. That's absolutely a position you can only take because of your own privilege. Lower income men face arguably the worst discrimination available in the US since they are way over represented in our prisons. I don't think trying to determine which of the sexes has it "worse" is in anyway a winning proposition or something anyone should be doing.

pdabbadabba 11y ago
Hold the phone! I didn't say that all women have it worse than all men. I totally agree that gender is just one of many factors that gives some people unfair advantages and other unfair disadvantages. My only claim is that being a woman tends to be a disadvantage in the same way that being poor or being black tends to be a disadvantage. It obviously is the case that the advantage/disadvantage conferred by one trait (here, gender) is conditioned by other factors. So, it might be that upper-income white women are more disadvantaged relative to upper-income white men, compared to the relative disadvantage of lower-income white women with respect to lower income white men. This certainly seems like a real possibility given, as you say, the unreasonably high incarceration rate of lower-income men. (Though I'm not sure I'm ready to commit one way or the other on who has it worse. I just don't know enough about the lives of lower-income women, frankly.) Given that we were talking about the software industry, though, it seemed reasonable to relativize the conversation to, broadly speaking, middle/upper income people.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  You said this statement: > men have struggles just the same Was wildly incorrect. It is not.