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Luc quite obviously isn't happy by the way, are you going to fire him soon? Also, what is it with software developers that they allow themselves to get treated

Luc quite obviously isn't happy by the way, are you going to fire him soon? Also, what is it with software developers that they allow themselves to get treated like children? First we had to stand up every day and report what we did yesterday, you little child who we can't trust to work so we will micro-manage you. Now you want us to put a smiley on a board every day like a pre-schooler so we can know when you're becoming a problem. Thank you, little software developer.

codeonfire 11y ago
At most companies, the only way managers know how to lead is what they learned with their children at home. They go into the workplace and just do what has worked for them before. They are the parent and the employee is the child. It's so simple! Of course employees are insulted and quit. If you look at any tech company, all employee facing HR material will be made like a cartoon with upbeat kids music with lots of clapping and whistling.
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  The parent-child analogy is spot on. It's also why managers see themselves as the authority figure and get annoyed when people don't do as they say. Whereas most employees (especially in high-tech jobs) expect their manager to be a mentor/guide, rather than a "boss". This disconnect tends to cause a lot of friction.
  - jeremiep 11y ago
    The best managers I've ever had used to be programmers and understood this. I've never seen these people as bosses and working with them was a constant joy almost every day. Sadly they are the minority. Managers start to feel like bosses when they don't have any technical background. The teams they manage are usually made up of juniors without much technical experience either, they'll be programmers rather than engineers reinforcing the "pop culture" Alan Kay talks about.
  - bsder 11y ago
    > Whereas most employees (especially in high-tech jobs) expect their manager to be a mentor/guide, rather than a "boss". Actually, I would argue that most employees don't know what they want their manager to be. If they did, they would remember that and be better managers later.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      > Actually, I would argue that most employees don't know what they want their manager to be. If they did, they would remember that and be better managers later. I don't think that's true. I think most managers, however, when they become managers, learn what their managers expect them to be, which may not be what their employees want them to be.
- _cudgel 11y ago
  This is partly a side effect of the, at this point, long-running trend of employers not training people on anything, let alone proper management. I've had some awful managers in my career. One was formerly an elementary school teacher. She, very predictably, treated everyone like they were in elementary school, going so far as to give people gold stars for things. When called out on it, she confessed she really had no idea how to manage adults. I've only had two excellent managers in my career, people who had studied management, were also technical, and cared about being effective at their jobs so the people they managed could be effective as well. These folks had formal training, undertaken of their own initiative, and it absolutely showed in all facets of what they did. Top notch folks! I suspect this lack of training is an American phenomenon, but have no data to back up the claim.
  - yarper 11y ago
    I think the lack of training is probably worldwide. I'm in the UK and have seen it in most companies here (although can only provide anecdotal evidence). Training is expensive and increased productivity is hard to measure - coupled together you see training as a cost with no tangible benefit. They then just expect their employees to learn everything in their own time (which from your employers perspective, is free). There's a kind of horrifying logic to it really.
jeremiep 11y ago
It will most likely end up being gamified just like most Agile metrics. The sticker board already ignores the context completely, so you can't look at it and know why they were happy or unhappy, therefore making it yet another form of coconut headphones. Funny how the original Manifesto for Agile Software Development mentions individuals and interactions over processes and tools, yet we resort to the later to manage the former constantly. I would think by now the irony would at least be obvious. Also, we're one of the few industries where our managers don't have the expertise of those they do manage. So its no wonder they try kindergarten management techniques.
AaronLasseigne 11y ago
> First we had to stand up every day and report what we did yesterday, you little child who we can't trust to work so we will micro-manage you. If that's how stand-ups are treated then I'd say they're being done incorrectly. The point is to create visibility within the team. People know what's going on and can help, adjust their plans accordingly, etc. We do them even when the boss is out of the office.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  "Even when"? Should the boss be in those meetings? All the agile talk is about empowering teams; yet the boss is monitoring every step. I'm with the OP; its another way to supervise.
  - AaronLasseigne 11y ago
    "Even when" as in he's not the reason the meetings occur. The boss is there because he too has things to report that inform the team.

codeonfire 11y ago

At most companies, the only way managers know how to lead is what they learned with their children at home. They go into the workplace and just do what has worked for them before. They are the parent and the employee is the child. It's so simple! Of course employees are insulted and quit. If you look at any tech company, all employee facing HR material will be made like a cartoon with upbeat kids music with lots of clapping and whistling.

enraged_camel 11y ago
The parent-child analogy is spot on. It's also why managers see themselves as the authority figure and get annoyed when people don't do as they say. Whereas most employees (especially in high-tech jobs) expect their manager to be a mentor/guide, rather than a "boss". This disconnect tends to cause a lot of friction.
- jeremiep 11y ago
  The best managers I've ever had used to be programmers and understood this. I've never seen these people as bosses and working with them was a constant joy almost every day. Sadly they are the minority. Managers start to feel like bosses when they don't have any technical background. The teams they manage are usually made up of juniors without much technical experience either, they'll be programmers rather than engineers reinforcing the "pop culture" Alan Kay talks about.
- bsder 11y ago
  > Whereas most employees (especially in high-tech jobs) expect their manager to be a mentor/guide, rather than a "boss". Actually, I would argue that most employees don't know what they want their manager to be. If they did, they would remember that and be better managers later.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Actually, I would argue that most employees don't know what they want their manager to be. If they did, they would remember that and be better managers later. I don't think that's true. I think most managers, however, when they become managers, learn what their managers expect them to be, which may not be what their employees want them to be.
_cudgel 11y ago
This is partly a side effect of the, at this point, long-running trend of employers not training people on anything, let alone proper management. I've had some awful managers in my career. One was formerly an elementary school teacher. She, very predictably, treated everyone like they were in elementary school, going so far as to give people gold stars for things. When called out on it, she confessed she really had no idea how to manage adults. I've only had two excellent managers in my career, people who had studied management, were also technical, and cared about being effective at their jobs so the people they managed could be effective as well. These folks had formal training, undertaken of their own initiative, and it absolutely showed in all facets of what they did. Top notch folks! I suspect this lack of training is an American phenomenon, but have no data to back up the claim.
- yarper 11y ago
  I think the lack of training is probably worldwide. I'm in the UK and have seen it in most companies here (although can only provide anecdotal evidence). Training is expensive and increased productivity is hard to measure - coupled together you see training as a cost with no tangible benefit. They then just expect their employees to learn everything in their own time (which from your employers perspective, is free). There's a kind of horrifying logic to it really.

jeremiep 11y ago

It will most likely end up being gamified just like most Agile metrics. The sticker board already ignores the context completely, so you can't look at it and know why they were happy or unhappy, therefore making it yet another form of coconut headphones. Funny how the original Manifesto for Agile Software Development mentions individuals and interactions over processes and tools, yet we resort to the later to manage the former constantly. I would think by now the irony would at least be obvious. Also, we're one of the few industries where our managers don't have the expertise of those they do manage. So its no wonder they try kindergarten management techniques.

AaronLasseigne 11y ago

> First we had to stand up every day and report what we did yesterday, you little child who we can't trust to work so we will micro-manage you. If that's how stand-ups are treated then I'd say they're being done incorrectly. The point is to create visibility within the team. People know what's going on and can help, adjust their plans accordingly, etc. We do them even when the boss is out of the office.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
"Even when"? Should the boss be in those meetings? All the agile talk is about empowering teams; yet the boss is monitoring every step. I'm with the OP; its another way to supervise.
- AaronLasseigne 11y ago
  "Even when" as in he's not the reason the meetings occur. The boss is there because he too has things to report that inform the team.