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What is your definition of off the grid? I can't help but think you are being pedantic here. He mentions he could dig a well, but it's more cost effective to ha

What is your definition of off the grid? I can't help but think you are being pedantic here. He mentions he could dig a well, but it's more cost effective to have water shipped in. As far as Internet access I'm sure that he needs it for his job so he can afford to purchase things like water or pay property taxes. At some point you have to interface with the rest of society, it is impossible for an individual to be 100% self sufficient.

mike-cardwell 11y ago
I don't think I'm being pedantic when he says he is "completely" off the grid. If you're going to claim to be "completely" off the grid, then you should be completely self sufficient. Re digging a well. Is your definition of "off the grid" related to how much something costs? If it costs too much, we'll just pretend it's not included in the definition?
- profsnuggles 11y ago
  How would he be completely self sufficient? He needs water and food at least. How do you dig a 200 foot well by yourself? Farming at the level actually needed to sustain someone year round is going to take more technology than my backyard garden. Is paying someone to come dig a well really that different than buying water? What if he was hypothetically able to purchase and store the amount of water that would be required to live the rest of his life? What happens when the well dries up? He gets someone that is on the grid to drill a new one? Doesn't that put him by proxy back on the grid?
  - icebraining 11y ago
    How do you dig a 200 foot well by yourself? You don't - you just live in a place where you don't need to dig one. For example, in my family's village in northern Spain, you have springs with reasonably clean water all year long; it's just a matter of walking a couple of miles with a jug. (Yes, I realize this is not realistic for the majority of the population. That doesn't mean "self-sufficiency" should lose its meaning)
  - mike-cardwell 11y ago
    I never said anything about living off the grid having a requirement that you had to build everything yourself in the process of leading up to you living off the grid. How you get to the point in time where you start living off the grid is irrelevant when the question is, am I living off the grid. Q.) Is paying someone to come dig a well really that different than buying water? Yes. One leaves you being self sufficient. One doesn't. Q.) What if he was hypothetically able to purchase and store the amount of water that would be required to live the rest of his life? Then he would be self sufficient and living off the grid. Q.) What happens when the well dries up? He finds another source of water, or dies. Perhaps he would have to rejoin civilisation to prevent death. Q.) He gets someone that is on the grid to drill a new one? Doesn't that put him by proxy back on the grid? If he does it that way. Then yes. Temporarily.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Well, with this line of reasoning I do live completely off the grid already. I could build a water turbine or even a hand crank, but buying power from utilities is cheaper. I could start a farm, but going to grocery store every other day is cheaper as well. I could move far from civilization, but living in a 1M city is much more fun.
  - Glide 11y ago
    I think it's just a level of self sufficiency as well as what other projects you may know of that would color that expectation. A former co-worker of mine had a side project that was a farm in the middle of nowhere. It was off the grid. Meaning zero electricity from outside. It was generating power via solar. It had internet (he has children, so netflix when it got late). Granted he didn't grow all of his own food, but he made excursions out every weekend so that wouldn't have been feasible to do either. But should he have built his own solar panels and mined for his own rare earths to build batteries? Most of the time living off-grid is some everyday level of self reliance most of first world is not at.
- x0054 11y ago
  OP Here: I think there are different definitions of off the grid. When I said that the HOUSE is completely off the grid, I meant that the house is not connected to a water utility, power utility, or gas utility directly. When I used to visit my Grandpa in Ukraine for the summer, he lived in the house with a water well (the type with the bucket), had wood burning everything, and grew all of his fruits and vegetables, and the house was setup for kerosene lighting. It was connected to electricity in the 1980s, but not before that. However, he still had to go out an buy firewood, because his property still wasn't large enough to grow all the firewood he needed, he still had to purchase meet and eggs, and he still had to buy kerosene (before electricity). So, was he off the grid? Well, I guess by your definition, no? I think the "off the grid" is a loaded term, and I didn't mean to use it in the "I live in a shack and haven't seen people in decades" definition, not that there is anything wrong with that. I used it in the more direct definition of we are not connected to a grid. Didn't mean to mislead any one though.
  - mike-cardwell 11y ago
    I accept that there is a difference between "living off-the-grid" and "living in an off-the-grid house". But don't try to claim that this article is only about the first. Because I see several references to living off the grid in the article too, including in the very title it's self. "Living Off the Grid Under the Sun" "I am not so sure about the environmental benefits of living completely off the grid." "I hope you enjoyed reading some of my thoughts and rantings about living off the grid in the high desert of California" I regret starting this thread now. I actually think what you've done is really cool and would like to do it myself. I just got hung up on the terminology.
bovermyer 11y ago
I'm not sure that's true. It just depends on what you're willing to accept in trade for total self-sufficiency. I imagine if you were willing to go without electricity or anything not hand made, and were able to secure a moneyless existence out in the deep woods, you could probably be self sufficient. It wouldn't be pleasant, and it wouldn't be a life I'd choose, but you could do it.
markvdb 11y ago
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russian-family-was-cut-off-from-all-human-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russ...

mike-cardwell 11y ago

I don't think I'm being pedantic when he says he is "completely" off the grid. If you're going to claim to be "completely" off the grid, then you should be completely self sufficient. Re digging a well. Is your definition of "off the grid" related to how much something costs? If it costs too much, we'll just pretend it's not included in the definition?

profsnuggles 11y ago
How would he be completely self sufficient? He needs water and food at least. How do you dig a 200 foot well by yourself? Farming at the level actually needed to sustain someone year round is going to take more technology than my backyard garden. Is paying someone to come dig a well really that different than buying water? What if he was hypothetically able to purchase and store the amount of water that would be required to live the rest of his life? What happens when the well dries up? He gets someone that is on the grid to drill a new one? Doesn't that put him by proxy back on the grid?
- icebraining 11y ago
  How do you dig a 200 foot well by yourself? You don't - you just live in a place where you don't need to dig one. For example, in my family's village in northern Spain, you have springs with reasonably clean water all year long; it's just a matter of walking a couple of miles with a jug. (Yes, I realize this is not realistic for the majority of the population. That doesn't mean "self-sufficiency" should lose its meaning)
- mike-cardwell 11y ago
  I never said anything about living off the grid having a requirement that you had to build everything yourself in the process of leading up to you living off the grid. How you get to the point in time where you start living off the grid is irrelevant when the question is, am I living off the grid. Q.) Is paying someone to come dig a well really that different than buying water? Yes. One leaves you being self sufficient. One doesn't. Q.) What if he was hypothetically able to purchase and store the amount of water that would be required to live the rest of his life? Then he would be self sufficient and living off the grid. Q.) What happens when the well dries up? He finds another source of water, or dies. Perhaps he would have to rejoin civilisation to prevent death. Q.) He gets someone that is on the grid to drill a new one? Doesn't that put him by proxy back on the grid? If he does it that way. Then yes. Temporarily.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Well, with this line of reasoning I do live completely off the grid already. I could build a water turbine or even a hand crank, but buying power from utilities is cheaper. I could start a farm, but going to grocery store every other day is cheaper as well. I could move far from civilization, but living in a 1M city is much more fun.
- Glide 11y ago
  I think it's just a level of self sufficiency as well as what other projects you may know of that would color that expectation. A former co-worker of mine had a side project that was a farm in the middle of nowhere. It was off the grid. Meaning zero electricity from outside. It was generating power via solar. It had internet (he has children, so netflix when it got late). Granted he didn't grow all of his own food, but he made excursions out every weekend so that wouldn't have been feasible to do either. But should he have built his own solar panels and mined for his own rare earths to build batteries? Most of the time living off-grid is some everyday level of self reliance most of first world is not at.
x0054 11y ago
OP Here: I think there are different definitions of off the grid. When I said that the HOUSE is completely off the grid, I meant that the house is not connected to a water utility, power utility, or gas utility directly. When I used to visit my Grandpa in Ukraine for the summer, he lived in the house with a water well (the type with the bucket), had wood burning everything, and grew all of his fruits and vegetables, and the house was setup for kerosene lighting. It was connected to electricity in the 1980s, but not before that. However, he still had to go out an buy firewood, because his property still wasn't large enough to grow all the firewood he needed, he still had to purchase meet and eggs, and he still had to buy kerosene (before electricity). So, was he off the grid? Well, I guess by your definition, no? I think the "off the grid" is a loaded term, and I didn't mean to use it in the "I live in a shack and haven't seen people in decades" definition, not that there is anything wrong with that. I used it in the more direct definition of we are not connected to a grid. Didn't mean to mislead any one though.
- mike-cardwell 11y ago
  I accept that there is a difference between "living off-the-grid" and "living in an off-the-grid house". But don't try to claim that this article is only about the first. Because I see several references to living off the grid in the article too, including in the very title it's self. "Living Off the Grid Under the Sun" "I am not so sure about the environmental benefits of living completely off the grid." "I hope you enjoyed reading some of my thoughts and rantings about living off the grid in the high desert of California" I regret starting this thread now. I actually think what you've done is really cool and would like to do it myself. I just got hung up on the terminology.

bovermyer 11y ago

I'm not sure that's true. It just depends on what you're willing to accept in trade for total self-sufficiency. I imagine if you were willing to go without electricity or anything not hand made, and were able to secure a moneyless existence out in the deep woods, you could probably be self sufficient. It wouldn't be pleasant, and it wouldn't be a life I'd choose, but you could do it.

markvdb 11y ago

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russian-family-was-cut-off-from-all-human-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russ...