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> With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was

> With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was only because I made the effort to "keep bothering her" because I was picking up "B". But what if she felt like "A"? How different would that have been for her? This entirely depends on what you mean by "keep bothering her." If you mean, to reference the article, asking to see her naked? Then you shouldn't do it. If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem?

Nadya 11y ago
>A person doesn't "have" to say anything if they are not interested. I've only ever responded to and explicitly contested this point out of context of whatever the article is about. A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. >If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem? If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me if it was "A" and not "B" - regardless if I was acting friendly and trying to spend time with her - I could see a lot of problems with that for her. Of course, I'd be blissfully unaware of them because she wasn't explicit that she wasn't interested.
- interpol_p 11y ago
  > A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. > If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me [...] Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense.
  - throwaway583283 11y ago
    Like Nadya, I also only ever responded to and contested that single part of the article. You write "Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence." I think we're all agreed that "Being extremely happy about and welcoming advances can take the form of silence." as well. Do you disagree with this?
  - Nadya 11y ago
    >And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. Fuck off with this "not an excuse to harass" bullshit. I've already said it's not an excuse and harassment is never OK. I've already stated, twice now and this is a third time that I'm not taking the actions of the article into consideration so harassment is not the issue here. Do you understand? I want to make sure I'm being very explicit with my communication that this has nothing to do with harassment. I am talking about a scenario of undesired continued communication that does not have the intentions of harassing (sexual or otherwise). >Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. You're now taking it out of the scenario. She was avoiding me. There's two reasons I can think of for actively avoiding someone. One of those is fear. The other is embarrassment. If you'd like to open my mind and give me more motives for avoiding someone for this context, feel free. But it seems very binary to me in this scenario. >If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? And if they are legitimately busy? I'm finding it funny your chosen examples have all happened to me and all of them resulted in relationships. Do you have another example? >The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense I don't see why you keep making this gendered. I've already provided an example with the genders swapped. It works both ways and has nothing to do with ignorance. It has to do with a failure of communication (which is an important part of getting along and living among other human beings). Please respond to the tldr, this is a test to ensure you're actually reading my responses. When I entered this conversation and until this point it's always been about implicit messages being poor (and harmful) for communication. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim you do not understand how communication works. Communication requires the meaning of the message to be understood and agreed upon. When a message is ambiguous in meaning (non-direct, implicit) the meaning of the message can be received in a manner not intended by the person giving the message. The best example of this is cultural differences in the meaning of an action. Even small things like putting soy sauce on your rice can have an entirely different meaning in Japan than in America. In Japan it can be considered rude while people in America wouldn't even give it a second thought. If I wanted to offend you, I could drown your rice in soy sauce. Now depending on your cultural background - I've either offended you, or you're unaware that my message was meant as an offense. Because this implicit meaning behind a physical mention is interpreted differently in different cultures. Implicit messages are terrible for communication. The ability for the meaning to be misunderstood or improperly conveyed is astounding. If you want someone to leave you alone it is important to be explicit. Especially when your implicit messages are ambiguous. TL;DR At best you can hope that when you mean "A" they assume "A" instead of "B" when "A" and "B" are ambiguous. But there is nothing wrong with assuming "B" and it is your fault for failing to communicate if that occurs because your implicit message was too ambiguous. You failed to communicate your intentions of "A" and that failure is on you. ps. America has a culture where people play "hard to get" on purpose. Every example you can think of that is intended to say "stop contacting me I'm not interested" is also used by these same people as a means of "try harder, I'm interested but want to make sure you're serious".

Nadya 11y ago

>A person doesn't "have" to say anything if they are not interested. I've only ever responded to and explicitly contested this point out of context of whatever the article is about. A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. >If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem? If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me if it was "A" and not "B" - regardless if I was acting friendly and trying to spend time with her - I could see a lot of problems with that for her. Of course, I'd be blissfully unaware of them because she wasn't explicit that she wasn't interested.

interpol_p 11y ago
> A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. > If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me [...] Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense.
- throwaway583283 11y ago
  Like Nadya, I also only ever responded to and contested that single part of the article. You write "Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence." I think we're all agreed that "Being extremely happy about and welcoming advances can take the form of silence." as well. Do you disagree with this?
- Nadya 11y ago
  >And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. Fuck off with this "not an excuse to harass" bullshit. I've already said it's not an excuse and harassment is never OK. I've already stated, twice now and this is a third time that I'm not taking the actions of the article into consideration so harassment is not the issue here. Do you understand? I want to make sure I'm being very explicit with my communication that this has nothing to do with harassment. I am talking about a scenario of undesired continued communication that does not have the intentions of harassing (sexual or otherwise). >Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. You're now taking it out of the scenario. She was avoiding me. There's two reasons I can think of for actively avoiding someone. One of those is fear. The other is embarrassment. If you'd like to open my mind and give me more motives for avoiding someone for this context, feel free. But it seems very binary to me in this scenario. >If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? And if they are legitimately busy? I'm finding it funny your chosen examples have all happened to me and all of them resulted in relationships. Do you have another example? >The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense I don't see why you keep making this gendered. I've already provided an example with the genders swapped. It works both ways and has nothing to do with ignorance. It has to do with a failure of communication (which is an important part of getting along and living among other human beings). Please respond to the tldr, this is a test to ensure you're actually reading my responses. When I entered this conversation and until this point it's always been about implicit messages being poor (and harmful) for communication. I'm going to go out on a limb here and claim you do not understand how communication works. Communication requires the meaning of the message to be understood and agreed upon. When a message is ambiguous in meaning (non-direct, implicit) the meaning of the message can be received in a manner not intended by the person giving the message. The best example of this is cultural differences in the meaning of an action. Even small things like putting soy sauce on your rice can have an entirely different meaning in Japan than in America. In Japan it can be considered rude while people in America wouldn't even give it a second thought. If I wanted to offend you, I could drown your rice in soy sauce. Now depending on your cultural background - I've either offended you, or you're unaware that my message was meant as an offense. Because this implicit meaning behind a physical mention is interpreted differently in different cultures. Implicit messages are terrible for communication. The ability for the meaning to be misunderstood or improperly conveyed is astounding. If you want someone to leave you alone it is important to be explicit. Especially when your implicit messages are ambiguous. TL;DR At best you can hope that when you mean "A" they assume "A" instead of "B" when "A" and "B" are ambiguous. But there is nothing wrong with assuming "B" and it is your fault for failing to communicate if that occurs because your implicit message was too ambiguous. You failed to communicate your intentions of "A" and that failure is on you. ps. America has a culture where people play "hard to get" on purpose. Every example you can think of that is intended to say "stop contacting me I'm not interested" is also used by these same people as a means of "try harder, I'm interested but want to make sure you're serious".