4 ms·

Right, but we expect professional engineers to learn difficult things. Having an expectation of them to also learn how to behave like adults seems like a reason

Right, but we expect professional engineers to learn difficult things. Having an expectation of them to also learn how to behave like adults seems like a reasonable one. Doesn't matter that it's "hard because they were scared of girls."

meric 11y ago
It's also reasonable to expect them to pass their engineering subjects, yet at the same time, we know in universities, the pass rate of some subjects can be as low as 60%, and usually around 80-90%. There will always be people who didn't make it through with all the knowledge pieces in the head intact and we need a system of making sure no one is left out. No one wants to lock up the 20% of engineers who aren't good with girls and have exhibited behaviour that constitutes harassment or being "creepy".
- interpol_p 11y ago
  No one is suggesting to "lock them up." They just don't get sympathy from me in cases like this, especially when they want to speak at a conference and interact with other professionals.
  - meric 11y ago
    No, they don't deserve sympathy.
- Mz 11y ago
  The problem with your remark is the implicit way that you want to make sure no men get left out. De facto alienating women is fine. It sounds like "girls" aren't really people in your eyes.
  - meric 11y ago
    If you're suggesting I should refer to girls I've interacted with when I was 9 years old as women, then I disagree with your suggestion. You have no solution besides shaming and locking up men who are harassing women. Is it working? Women are getting harassed and men are getting shamed. If that's your ideal of male-female relations then I suggest it is you who has a problem with not wanting to find out the root cause of societal issues, and enjoying the shaming and denigrating socially inept men as a hobby at the cost of other women who are getting harassed. Revenge is fun, I get it, and helping other women who are harassed can feel good too, yes. That doesn't mean solutions to reduce the propensity for men to harass women shouldn't be explored.
    - Mz 11y ago
      No, that is not my ideal of male-female relations. I have a track record of speaking out against that. You suggesting I have a problem amounts to a personal attack and one that is wholly unfounded given my track record. I was only trying to point out a flaw in your logic. I am very conservative about trying to suggest solutions because I think we have yet to adequately flesh out the problem space. Trying to come up with solutions when the problem isn't well understood tends to produce bad solutions that make problems worse.
      - meric 11y ago
        Then don't start personal attacks to begin with. We could focus on the women and you'd complain it's men who needs to change. Focus on the ways to change men and you're complaining we aren't focusing on the women. I hereby put my hands up and give up caring about women I don't know being harassed. They can solve their own problems and me caring about it only gets me attacked personally, no matter what ideas I offer. Seems like the only behaviour you'd suggest is to have a negative outlook towards men and that not something I'd agree with. I have a pretty good guess a lot of harassment comes from a man not knowing how to deal with women, because it's something that happened to me. Instead of willing to consider this viewpoint you dismiss the idea completely and go after me and my logic. You have a strong track record and you don't need people like me to tell you what's happening. It will be for the best.

meric 11y ago

It's also reasonable to expect them to pass their engineering subjects, yet at the same time, we know in universities, the pass rate of some subjects can be as low as 60%, and usually around 80-90%. There will always be people who didn't make it through with all the knowledge pieces in the head intact and we need a system of making sure no one is left out. No one wants to lock up the 20% of engineers who aren't good with girls and have exhibited behaviour that constitutes harassment or being "creepy".

interpol_p 11y ago
No one is suggesting to "lock them up." They just don't get sympathy from me in cases like this, especially when they want to speak at a conference and interact with other professionals.
- meric 11y ago
  No, they don't deserve sympathy.
Mz 11y ago
The problem with your remark is the implicit way that you want to make sure no men get left out. De facto alienating women is fine. It sounds like "girls" aren't really people in your eyes.
- meric 11y ago
  If you're suggesting I should refer to girls I've interacted with when I was 9 years old as women, then I disagree with your suggestion. You have no solution besides shaming and locking up men who are harassing women. Is it working? Women are getting harassed and men are getting shamed. If that's your ideal of male-female relations then I suggest it is you who has a problem with not wanting to find out the root cause of societal issues, and enjoying the shaming and denigrating socially inept men as a hobby at the cost of other women who are getting harassed. Revenge is fun, I get it, and helping other women who are harassed can feel good too, yes. That doesn't mean solutions to reduce the propensity for men to harass women shouldn't be explored.
  - Mz 11y ago
    No, that is not my ideal of male-female relations. I have a track record of speaking out against that. You suggesting I have a problem amounts to a personal attack and one that is wholly unfounded given my track record. I was only trying to point out a flaw in your logic. I am very conservative about trying to suggest solutions because I think we have yet to adequately flesh out the problem space. Trying to come up with solutions when the problem isn't well understood tends to produce bad solutions that make problems worse.
    - meric 11y ago
      Then don't start personal attacks to begin with. We could focus on the women and you'd complain it's men who needs to change. Focus on the ways to change men and you're complaining we aren't focusing on the women. I hereby put my hands up and give up caring about women I don't know being harassed. They can solve their own problems and me caring about it only gets me attacked personally, no matter what ideas I offer. Seems like the only behaviour you'd suggest is to have a negative outlook towards men and that not something I'd agree with. I have a pretty good guess a lot of harassment comes from a man not knowing how to deal with women, because it's something that happened to me. Instead of willing to consider this viewpoint you dismiss the idea completely and go after me and my logic. You have a strong track record and you don't need people like me to tell you what's happening. It will be for the best.