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So what if someone doesn't reply? It's not the end of the world. And it certainly does not give you the right to harass them with increasingly sexual explicit m

So what if someone doesn't reply? It's not the end of the world. And it certainly does not give you the right to harass them with increasingly sexual explicit messaging (what happened in this case). There are polite ways to see whether someone got your message (e.g. a simple "did you get my message?") when you see them in person. I don't think your example really accounts for the myriad of ways this man could have gracefully handled being turned down. Doesn't really matter whether some people are bad at responding to messages. It's not an excuse for this behaviour nor should it be a "social requirement" for people to have to turn down unwanted advances explicitly (that's ridiculous).

Nadya 11y ago
You're right about harassment/explicit sexual messaging, but I wasn't speaking about that case. I was speaking about a lack of response in general. Some people, regardless of gender, simply don't get the message. For example, this ex-coworker of mine: http://i.imgur.com/udbGjWI.png http://i.imgur.com/udbGjWI.png (history goes back to 2013 without a single response). People get all up in arms about bullying and namecalling or racism against strangers - but psychological abuse is perfectly acceptable. I feel bad for not responding - but she knew me before my transition and I don't feel comfortable telling a coworker who was romantically interested in me (and made it known to me) that I've transitioned. Especially since I'm still stealth and especially because they know other people I'm still in contact with. >I don't think your example really accounts for the myriad of ways this man could have gracefully handled being turned down. Being ignored is not being turned down. >nor should it be a "social requirement" for people to have to turn down unwanted advances explicitly (that's ridiculous). Until people have telepathy and can tell when an advance is unwanted without cue, I disagree. Implicitly to you doesn't mean implicitly to everyone. What you might think is giving off one message could be picked up as an entirely different message by someone else. Non-direct communication has the whole problem of not being direct. Here, have an example: A girl I knew in high school used to avoid me in the halls going between classes. I've made some attempts at speaking to her, but she's never responded and always ran off. Knowing only this implicit information, which of the following is true: a) she was afraid of me and trying to avoid me b) she had a crush on me and got embarrassed when I was around With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was only because I made the effort to "keep bothering her" because I was picking up "B" as her implicit message. What if she actually felt like "A"? How different would that have been for her? What if my advances were unwanted attention and were making her feel more uncomfortable? I'd have no way of knowing. (And you'd think of me as some pushy asshole for it, thanks.) Thinking she has a crush on me, I might be a bit more pushy and outgoing with my advances because I think she likes me. Which would make her feel even more uncomfortable. If I was interpreting her "A" message as a "B" message, she's making things much harder on herself than if she was explicit about her "A" feelings. If I picked up on "B" messages but she meant "A" that makes me an asshole in your book. If she meant "B", and my actions would have been the same if she meant "A" due to the implicit message, I should still be considered an asshole. Since my actions were the same! Finally, if I assume "A" even though it's "B" would I be an insensitive asshole? I don't see any way in that scenario where I wouldn't be an asshole. I have to take a chance and hope she means "B" like I think she does for a "mutually beneficial result" to happen (though I'm still an asshole).
- interpol_p 11y ago
  > With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was only because I made the effort to "keep bothering her" because I was picking up "B". But what if she felt like "A"? How different would that have been for her? This entirely depends on what you mean by "keep bothering her." If you mean, to reference the article, asking to see her naked? Then you shouldn't do it. If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem?
  - Nadya 11y ago
    >A person doesn't "have" to say anything if they are not interested. I've only ever responded to and explicitly contested this point out of context of whatever the article is about. A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. >If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem? If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me if it was "A" and not "B" - regardless if I was acting friendly and trying to spend time with her - I could see a lot of problems with that for her. Of course, I'd be blissfully unaware of them because she wasn't explicit that she wasn't interested.
    - interpol_p 11y ago
      > A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. > If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me [...] Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense.
throwaway583283 11y ago
I agree with you completely that increasingly sexual messages were completely inappropriate. (I didn't read the whole article though, I'm going on your summary.) That said, it sounds like she her options open with him. Does it quote any of her "rejections" at all? It sounds like she remained warm and friendly with him.

Nadya 11y ago

You're right about harassment/explicit sexual messaging, but I wasn't speaking about that case. I was speaking about a lack of response in general. Some people, regardless of gender, simply don't get the message. For example, this ex-coworker of mine: http://i.imgur.com/udbGjWI.png http://i.imgur.com/udbGjWI.png (history goes back to 2013 without a single response). People get all up in arms about bullying and namecalling or racism against strangers - but psychological abuse is perfectly acceptable. I feel bad for not responding - but she knew me before my transition and I don't feel comfortable telling a coworker who was romantically interested in me (and made it known to me) that I've transitioned. Especially since I'm still stealth and especially because they know other people I'm still in contact with. >I don't think your example really accounts for the myriad of ways this man could have gracefully handled being turned down. Being ignored is not being turned down. >nor should it be a "social requirement" for people to have to turn down unwanted advances explicitly (that's ridiculous). Until people have telepathy and can tell when an advance is unwanted without cue, I disagree. Implicitly to you doesn't mean implicitly to everyone. What you might think is giving off one message could be picked up as an entirely different message by someone else. Non-direct communication has the whole problem of not being direct. Here, have an example: A girl I knew in high school used to avoid me in the halls going between classes. I've made some attempts at speaking to her, but she's never responded and always ran off. Knowing only this implicit information, which of the following is true: a) she was afraid of me and trying to avoid me b) she had a crush on me and got embarrassed when I was around With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was only because I made the effort to "keep bothering her" because I was picking up "B" as her implicit message. What if she actually felt like "A"? How different would that have been for her? What if my advances were unwanted attention and were making her feel more uncomfortable? I'd have no way of knowing. (And you'd think of me as some pushy asshole for it, thanks.) Thinking she has a crush on me, I might be a bit more pushy and outgoing with my advances because I think she likes me. Which would make her feel even more uncomfortable. If I was interpreting her "A" message as a "B" message, she's making things much harder on herself than if she was explicit about her "A" feelings. If I picked up on "B" messages but she meant "A" that makes me an asshole in your book. If she meant "B", and my actions would have been the same if she meant "A" due to the implicit message, I should still be considered an asshole. Since my actions were the same! Finally, if I assume "A" even though it's "B" would I be an insensitive asshole? I don't see any way in that scenario where I wouldn't be an asshole. I have to take a chance and hope she means "B" like I think she does for a "mutually beneficial result" to happen (though I'm still an asshole).

interpol_p 11y ago
> With the information I've given you - it could be either one. Couldn't it? I'll give you the answer though: it was B and we later ended up dating. But it was only because I made the effort to "keep bothering her" because I was picking up "B". But what if she felt like "A"? How different would that have been for her? This entirely depends on what you mean by "keep bothering her." If you mean, to reference the article, asking to see her naked? Then you shouldn't do it. If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem?
- Nadya 11y ago
  >A person doesn't "have" to say anything if they are not interested. I've only ever responded to and explicitly contested this point out of context of whatever the article is about. A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. >If you mean trying to be friendly and spend time with her, then what's the problem? If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me if it was "A" and not "B" - regardless if I was acting friendly and trying to spend time with her - I could see a lot of problems with that for her. Of course, I'd be blissfully unaware of them because she wasn't explicit that she wasn't interested.
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    > A person does have to say something in many scenarios. Like the one I gave. Or the result can be very wrong. Rejecting unwanted advances can take the form of silence. Especially over text message. It's a pretty common way to reject someone without creating an awkward situation. If one party can't take the hint then they are more likely being wilfully ignorant (don't want to accept rejection). And even if they aren't, it's not an excuse to harass. > If I was making her very uncomfortable and she felt unsafe around me because she was afraid of me [...] Women do not make a binary choice between either "being afraid of you" or "being attracted to you." If you are a friendly and reasonable person then you shouldn't have a problem. If you ask someone out and they say "I'm busy" a few too many times, maybe you just take the hint and move on, no? The argument that "I'm too ignorant to know when women don't want my attention" is nonsense.

throwaway583283 11y ago

I agree with you completely that increasingly sexual messages were completely inappropriate. (I didn't read the whole article though, I'm going on your summary.) That said, it sounds like she her options open with him. Does it quote any of her "rejections" at all? It sounds like she remained warm and friendly with him.