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Sorry for how long this turned out to be. I believe the massive number of vets returning from places like Afghanistan and Iraq has had quite a bit to do with th

by Loughla 11y ago

Sorry for how long this turned out to be. I believe the massive number of vets returning from places like Afghanistan and Iraq has had quite a bit to do with the increased tensions between civilians and police as well, and has also contributed to the militarization of police across the country (at least in attitude, if not in equipment). Couple a newly returned squad of soldiers who are more than qualified for civilian law-enforcement with a new incoming supply of armored transport and military equipment, you can't avoid the militarization of the police force. As anecdotal evidence; in my small area of the mid-west, our local county police force (I'm ignoring the state and city cops for now) is comprised of roughly 50 officers. Without the jail and office-dwellers, it's about 35 who are on the street daily. After looking it up, of those 35, 32 have less than 10 years' experience. Of those 32, all were hired within 3 months of returning from Afghanistan or Iraq. I never put two and two together. I just noticed that the attitude in the county has changed. Whereas people used to talk to the police they met, and used to interact with them at community events, they don't anymore (and the cops don't come to church socials, community gatherings or celebrations anymore - they only stick with each other). In the past, I have actually invited officers to the house for lemonade, or even delivered it to them, when I saw them sitting at the nearest speed trap spot on hot days. I've jumped their cars when they die. I've even invited them to (illegal) fireworks displays - with no worries, because they understood that we weren't idiots. I haven't done any of that for over five years. Why? Because all the police now treat their police work like an extension of their time in the military. All of them. Every one. Legitimately, they stick together like it's still the military, and always have their fingers on the trigger of whatever gun they're carrying when speaking to anyone who isn't in a county officer uniform. They're driving around with multiple firearms in rural areas where the crime rate is non-existent. Honestly, I don't know where my house keys are because I have never locked the doors. In 8 years. But, they've become, essentially, a little military. They practice swat tactics, they practice distance shooting, they practice how to take down dangerous criminals that don't exist in our area. Why? What does that help? They should be practicing how to talk to children without needing to touch a gun, and how to interact with adults without treating them like criminals. tl;dr: returning vets who refuse to lose the military attitude, increased military supplies to civilian law enforcement agencies, and the shit-tons of money to be made in corrections have all contributed to this problem of hyper-vigilance.

EliRivers 11y ago
the increased tensions between civilians and police as well That's a big part of the problem right there. Police are civilians [1], but they have been picturing themselves as some kind of messed-up "soldiers against crime" that they now believe their own nonsense; it's them against the civilians (not them against criminals - them against civilians). Hiring ex-soldiers to be police officers is part of the problem; military training (of the killing people quickly through intense violence type [2]) teaches a mindset that is utterly unsuited to policing. Living in the UK, I feel safer with routinely unarmed police. [1] Sure, in some countries the police are actually military or paramilitary personnel, but those countries aren't being discussed here. [2] Which is, of course, by no means all. I was reserve forces myself for fifteen years and never touched a loaded firearm.
- andrepd 11y ago
  Hit the nail on the head. All this overmilitarization of police seems to create an image of a strong force keeping peace and security, when in fact what it does is the exact reverse, and unarmed police like in the UK actually fosters safety much better than the "soldiers against crime" attitude.
sandworm101 11y ago
Except that most of the military do not walk around with fingers on triggers all day. That's a very small group of front-line combat people. Half the military rarely pick up a weapon. The air force, most all of the navy, most everyone in intel ... they aren't raiding desert compounds every night. I'm betting that a US base (in the US) probably has few guns per person than a typical US neighborhood. It might be counterintuitive, but I find MPs (military police) generally much more friendly and calm that the average civilian cop.
tsotha 11y ago
>I believe the massive number of vets returning from places like Afghanistan and Iraq has had quite a bit to do with the increased tensions between civilians and police as well, and has also contributed to the militarization of police across the country (at least in attitude, if not in equipment). Seems unlikely to me. Police departments always had vets. When we went to war in Kuwait in 1991, guys right around retirement age had been in Vietnam. Back when they joined the veteran cops were military veterans from WW II and Korea. Police departments have always preferred to hire combat veterans, because you don't know who's going to crack the first time they take incoming fire. So you hire someone who's already been shot at. Anyway, the time frame is off. The first gulf war wasn't until 1991, but police departments had already traded in their .38 Specials for high capacity automatics and started dressing like ninjas by the mid '80s. From what I can tell police forces in the US stopped acting like police and more like an invading army as a response to well armed drug dealers and a few well-publicized shootouts in which the home team didn't do well, most notably this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Which might be the most studied shootout in US history. The FBI changed its contact policies as a result, and police departments normally pay close attention to FBI recommendations. It's a kind of positive feedback loop, where fearful cops subject people to humiliating procedures in an effort to keep themselves safe, and people responding like people always respond to humiliation. A colleague of mine spent fifteen minutes spread-eagled face down on a hot street because he kind of looked like someone who committed a nonviolent crime. Do that to a thousand people and one of them is going to start shooting the next time he's pulled over.

by Loughla 11y ago

EliRivers 11y ago

the increased tensions between civilians and police as well That's a big part of the problem right there. Police are civilians [1], but they have been picturing themselves as some kind of messed-up "soldiers against crime" that they now believe their own nonsense; it's them against the civilians (not them against criminals - them against civilians). Hiring ex-soldiers to be police officers is part of the problem; military training (of the killing people quickly through intense violence type [2]) teaches a mindset that is utterly unsuited to policing. Living in the UK, I feel safer with routinely unarmed police. [1] Sure, in some countries the police are actually military or paramilitary personnel, but those countries aren't being discussed here. [2] Which is, of course, by no means all. I was reserve forces myself for fifteen years and never touched a loaded firearm.

andrepd 11y ago
Hit the nail on the head. All this overmilitarization of police seems to create an image of a strong force keeping peace and security, when in fact what it does is the exact reverse, and unarmed police like in the UK actually fosters safety much better than the "soldiers against crime" attitude.

sandworm101 11y ago

Except that most of the military do not walk around with fingers on triggers all day. That's a very small group of front-line combat people. Half the military rarely pick up a weapon. The air force, most all of the navy, most everyone in intel ... they aren't raiding desert compounds every night. I'm betting that a US base (in the US) probably has few guns per person than a typical US neighborhood. It might be counterintuitive, but I find MPs (military police) generally much more friendly and calm that the average civilian cop.

tsotha 11y ago

>I believe the massive number of vets returning from places like Afghanistan and Iraq has had quite a bit to do with the increased tensions between civilians and police as well, and has also contributed to the militarization of police across the country (at least in attitude, if not in equipment). Seems unlikely to me. Police departments always had vets. When we went to war in Kuwait in 1991, guys right around retirement age had been in Vietnam. Back when they joined the veteran cops were military veterans from WW II and Korea. Police departments have always preferred to hire combat veterans, because you don't know who's going to crack the first time they take incoming fire. So you hire someone who's already been shot at. Anyway, the time frame is off. The first gulf war wasn't until 1991, but police departments had already traded in their .38 Specials for high capacity automatics and started dressing like ninjas by the mid '80s. From what I can tell police forces in the US stopped acting like police and more like an invading army as a response to well armed drug dealers and a few well-publicized shootouts in which the home team didn't do well, most notably this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout Which might be the most studied shootout in US history. The FBI changed its contact policies as a result, and police departments normally pay close attention to FBI recommendations. It's a kind of positive feedback loop, where fearful cops subject people to humiliating procedures in an effort to keep themselves safe, and people responding like people always respond to humiliation. A colleague of mine spent fifteen minutes spread-eagled face down on a hot street because he kind of looked like someone who committed a nonviolent crime. Do that to a thousand people and one of them is going to start shooting the next time he's pulled over.