5 ms·

Arduino IMHO is bad and harmful: it "gentrifies" the hobby, floods it with people who have no desire to learn the basics.

by ild 11y ago

greenNote 11y ago
Partially agree, the same could be said about the Parallax crowd 20 years ago. I think the real problem is Abstraction. Most things are assembled as blocks, with no idea how the blocks work. It seems like many projects today consist of, A) Take X microcontroller B) Add Y1, Y2, Yx component blocks (LCD screen, motor controller, etc.) C) Add connecting wires D) Use manufacture supplied libraries E) Add some custom code for your domain.
- krupan 11y ago
  Which is exactly the progression that software made. When was the last time you wrote your own bios, bootloader, os, device drivers, filesystem, network stack, etc.? You don't do that now, as you said, "most things are assembled as blocks," except it's worse than that, you just get a big monolithic "OS" now days install that on your desktop and then you write "custom code for your domain." I don't think this is a bad thing, since all that software that you don't write yourself is available as open source and you can still dig in and see how it works if you want. I'm not a close follower of arduino, but from what I understand the low-level code and board schematics and layout are open source, so it's kind of the same idea. I don't think the processor is open source though (having the verilog code, timing constraints, layout, etc. for that would be the ideal).
  - ild 11y ago
    The difference is that Arduino interfaces the electronic world; you need to know your domain.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      That makes absolutely no difference. I've been designing electronics and firmware professionally for my entire career. Right now I'm acting as a consultant developing a network-enabled industrial device. It's going to be powered by an Arduino simply because it's easy to do, robust enough (after I design appropriate power supply protection), and most important: enormous amounts of documentation and experience in the community means I can probably complete the entire project in less than a day of work. That's what matters. Not some mistaken concept of "gentrification" because you're pissed off at opening up your Good ol' boys club.
      - ild 11y ago
        > I've been designing electronics and firmware professionally for my entire career. That makes absolutely no difference. You can still be a bad engineer. If you find Arduino bastardized C++ superior than AVR-GCC, you are a poor developer. Everything you can do with Arduino C++ wrapper you can do with normal C++. You'll save resources, end up with firmware, written in industrially standard language, will have better control over hardware. > experience in the community means I can probably complete the entire project in less than a day of work. If you after "designing electronics and firmware professionally for the entire career " still need assistance from the community for already well-documented 8-bit controller, it tells about you. > pissed off at opening up your Good ol' boys club. No, I am not - after all I am not an embedded developer; I am pissed that it is advertised as something it is not: not a good tool for making industrial automation, not a good tool to stay with if you decide to get involved with automation seriously. It gives a wrong idea to the student about how AVR works, it locks you in with the platform and at the same time dominates the sector.
CognitiveLens 11y ago
To be fair, every generation skips the basics learned by the previous generation to some extent - standing on the shoulders of giants is the only way to reach further. There's definitely value in digging deeper into more fundamental components, but I wouldn't say that doing so is the only way to advance the field, and even if there's a flood of superficial hobbyists, would you argue that there are actually fewer people who learn the basics?
- ild 11y ago
  > fewer people who learn the basics? It stays constant, but the noise increases.
ptorrone 11y ago
this is going to go in my collection of classic comments about arduino, you're saying arduino is "bad" and "harmful" (to who and how?) because more, and different people than you might get interested in electronics as a hobby. wow. here's another you may enjoy from my article "Why the Arduino Won and Why It’s Here to Stay" “Arduino: baby-talk programming for pothead” – ArnoldB, AVRfreaks.net http://makezine.com/2011/02/10/why-the-arduino-won-and-why-its-here-to-stay/ http://makezine.com/2011/02/10/why-the-arduino-won-and-why-i... disclosure, i work at the open-source hardware company, adafruit and we make arduinos for arduino.cc !
- ild 11y ago
  > to who? Everyone and especially the arduinists themselves. > people than you might get interested in electronics as a hobby. wow. People get interested in Arduino, not electronics; they get interested in the bling, not how it works. Instead of wasting time with Arduino, they can as well just read the datasheets.
  - meragrin 11y ago
    Then I guess everyone who has not written their own network stack and built their own networking hardware should get off the internet. After all, they are just interested in the bling and not how it works.
    - ild 11y ago
      No, wrong analogy. Web browsing should not be advertised as an introduction into TCP/IP.
      - krupan 11y ago
        If you really want to get into TCP/IP it's not the worst place to start, and all the others who just browse for fun aren't hurting you any, are they?
        11y ago
drcube 11y ago
Gentrification is bad because it pushes out the people who can no longer afford it. How does Arduino do this to electronics hobbyists?
- ild 11y ago
  There was a link on HN recently about gentrification of the concept "hacker". It explains better than I can do.

Arduino IMHO is bad and harmful: it "gentrifies" the hobby, floods it with people who have no desire to learn the basics.

by ild 11y ago

Arduino IMHO is bad and harmful: it "gentrifies" the hobby, floods it with people who have no desire to learn the basics.

greenNote 11y ago

Partially agree, the same could be said about the Parallax crowd 20 years ago. I think the real problem is Abstraction. Most things are assembled as blocks, with no idea how the blocks work. It seems like many projects today consist of, A) Take X microcontroller B) Add Y1, Y2, Yx component blocks (LCD screen, motor controller, etc.) C) Add connecting wires D) Use manufacture supplied libraries E) Add some custom code for your domain.

krupan 11y ago
Which is exactly the progression that software made. When was the last time you wrote your own bios, bootloader, os, device drivers, filesystem, network stack, etc.? You don't do that now, as you said, "most things are assembled as blocks," except it's worse than that, you just get a big monolithic "OS" now days install that on your desktop and then you write "custom code for your domain." I don't think this is a bad thing, since all that software that you don't write yourself is available as open source and you can still dig in and see how it works if you want. I'm not a close follower of arduino, but from what I understand the low-level code and board schematics and layout are open source, so it's kind of the same idea. I don't think the processor is open source though (having the verilog code, timing constraints, layout, etc. for that would be the ideal).
- ild 11y ago
  The difference is that Arduino interfaces the electronic world; you need to know your domain.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    That makes absolutely no difference. I've been designing electronics and firmware professionally for my entire career. Right now I'm acting as a consultant developing a network-enabled industrial device. It's going to be powered by an Arduino simply because it's easy to do, robust enough (after I design appropriate power supply protection), and most important: enormous amounts of documentation and experience in the community means I can probably complete the entire project in less than a day of work. That's what matters. Not some mistaken concept of "gentrification" because you're pissed off at opening up your Good ol' boys club.
    - ild 11y ago
      > I've been designing electronics and firmware professionally for my entire career. That makes absolutely no difference. You can still be a bad engineer. If you find Arduino bastardized C++ superior than AVR-GCC, you are a poor developer. Everything you can do with Arduino C++ wrapper you can do with normal C++. You'll save resources, end up with firmware, written in industrially standard language, will have better control over hardware. > experience in the community means I can probably complete the entire project in less than a day of work. If you after "designing electronics and firmware professionally for the entire career " still need assistance from the community for already well-documented 8-bit controller, it tells about you. > pissed off at opening up your Good ol' boys club. No, I am not - after all I am not an embedded developer; I am pissed that it is advertised as something it is not: not a good tool for making industrial automation, not a good tool to stay with if you decide to get involved with automation seriously. It gives a wrong idea to the student about how AVR works, it locks you in with the platform and at the same time dominates the sector.

CognitiveLens 11y ago

To be fair, every generation skips the basics learned by the previous generation to some extent - standing on the shoulders of giants is the only way to reach further. There's definitely value in digging deeper into more fundamental components, but I wouldn't say that doing so is the only way to advance the field, and even if there's a flood of superficial hobbyists, would you argue that there are actually fewer people who learn the basics?

ild 11y ago
> fewer people who learn the basics? It stays constant, but the noise increases.

ptorrone 11y ago

this is going to go in my collection of classic comments about arduino, you're saying arduino is "bad" and "harmful" (to who and how?) because more, and different people than you might get interested in electronics as a hobby. wow. here's another you may enjoy from my article "Why the Arduino Won and Why It’s Here to Stay" “Arduino: baby-talk programming for pothead” – ArnoldB, AVRfreaks.net http://makezine.com/2011/02/10/why-the-arduino-won-and-why-its-here-to-stay/ http://makezine.com/2011/02/10/why-the-arduino-won-and-why-i... disclosure, i work at the open-source hardware company, adafruit and we make arduinos for arduino.cc !

ild 11y ago
> to who? Everyone and especially the arduinists themselves. > people than you might get interested in electronics as a hobby. wow. People get interested in Arduino, not electronics; they get interested in the bling, not how it works. Instead of wasting time with Arduino, they can as well just read the datasheets.
- meragrin 11y ago
  Then I guess everyone who has not written their own network stack and built their own networking hardware should get off the internet. After all, they are just interested in the bling and not how it works.
  - ild 11y ago
    No, wrong analogy. Web browsing should not be advertised as an introduction into TCP/IP.
    - krupan 11y ago
      If you really want to get into TCP/IP it's not the worst place to start, and all the others who just browse for fun aren't hurting you any, are they?
      - 11y ago

drcube 11y ago

Gentrification is bad because it pushes out the people who can no longer afford it. How does Arduino do this to electronics hobbyists?

ild 11y ago
There was a link on HN recently about gentrification of the concept "hacker". It explains better than I can do.