3 ms·

0331, infantry machine gunner. We saw a lot of combat in Fallujah, which might have taken the starch out of most. There is also the timing to consider, 01 to

by woodman 11y ago

0331, infantry machine gunner. We saw a lot of combat in Fallujah, which might have taken the starch out of most. There is also the timing to consider, 01 to 05 were interesting years for the military - a very large injection of middle and upper middle class folks.

fapjacks 11y ago
Maybe there are more police officers are in the Army than the Marines. It is definitely a significant demographic in line units in the Army guard and reserves. FWIW we had the opposite happen: When I joined in 2000, there were a lot of college kids and middleupper-middle class people. After the wars started, it was basically people coming off of active duty to serve the rest of their 8 years (four active, four guard/reserve), poor people that couldn't afford college otherwise (myself included) and law enforcement. There was an enormous shift, and a kind of unspoken understanding before Iraq that anybody that didn't want to be in combat needed to get out. And so they found ways -- like PT tests and paperwork (and I suppose drug tests and DUIs) -- to get out.
- woodman 11y ago
  I knew that the cultures were different, but I never would have guessed that the Army had post-9/11 recruit quality problems - especially for combat arms. When the fourth 9/11 anniversary rolled around the USMC leadership was sweating bullets and pulling out all the stops for retention, because the enlisted pool was the best it had been in living memory. Everybody knows that bootcamp is designed to provide a common experience and rebuild recruits, standardizing to the military's brand of discipline and morality - like interchangeable-parts from the industrial revolution. I've wondered what distance that influence would cover in one's life, because so far it is still holding up in interesting ways. I've talked to guys I hadn't heard from in ten years, and despite differences in profession and family situation, a pretty strong pattern has emerged in uncommon political/philosophical thought. So maybe the influence is much more local. Maybe some soldiers become cops because their drill instructors withheld affection :)
  - fapjacks 11y ago
    Heh, "withheld affection"... I'm going to use that. I should say there wasn't so much a problem with recruit quality, as the people I mentioned were just as good at soldiering as the others, but it was certainly different. Most of the men in my family were in the Marine Corps at some point, and I worked with Marines on my second and fourth tours, so I have a little bit of insight into what you mean about the culture difference. Also I should say I always enjoyed working with Marines. And with respect to your other point, I think military service is so valuable for individuals that I strongly support conscription. I believe only good things could come of requiring every person to go serve in the military (or Peace Corps or something) for two years when they turn 18. If we did that, I think the problems we're facing as a nation would see some positive change within a single generation, and I'm confident enough in that statement that I am sure you feel the same way. For all the things I hated about the Army, the physical and psychological tools they equipped me with have helped enrich my life in so many ways. Every time I think about my feelings about this, I picture that scene from Starship Troopers when the guy wheels his chair out from the desk and he's missing a leg and has a prosthetic arm, but he shakes Johnny's hand and says "Good for you. The infantry made me the man I am today"[0] and that's how I personally feel about it. I mean, I have all my fingers and toes, but I feel like that guy. Including the tragedy, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPTPe33PQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPTPe33PQY
    - woodman 11y ago
      The antics and over-the-top bravado, reaching levels of self parody, is an acquired taste - the family connection must have provided a measure of inoculation. There is a reason why they always put the infantry barracks in the furthest corner of the base, next to the grenade range - because even Marines get tired of the self promotion. I spent several months instructing in a joint service training program at Quantico, and honestly the Army personnel bugged the hell out of me because it was so hard to get a rise out of them :) The Army's leadership in program management and standards development was always impressive, the transition to COTS procurement in the 90s is a real bummer when you look at all the interesting stuff the military was doing: Ada, IDEF1X, etc. As far as conscription, I think that would be close to the worst thing ever. From a utilitarian perspective: it would be incredibly expensive and would reduce force readiness. From a moral perspective: it is pretty hard to logically justify the threats of violence organic to such an endeavor - threats against the intended benefactors, civilians. I might have agreed with you 10 years ago, if the infantry remained all volunteer under such a program, but the utilitarian arguments no longer appeal to me. I wish I could put my finger on exactly what bit of information flipped the switch in my brain and made me an anarchist, but it was a pretty long process. It probably occurred around the time that I was spending a lot of time studying first order logic and cybernetics (As you can see, I'm a big fan of technology once popular in the 70's). Applying lessons from those fields, related to scaling working systems, to social systems - leads to the idea that a social system founded on an immoral precept will never be able to compete against a system founded otherwise. The test is pretty easy, if a rule has an exception then the problem to which the rule applies was not well defined and this leads to serious scaling issues. I could go on for hours, but I don't think anybody really wants that. Regrets. I don't have any, aside from not taking math more seriously as a kid. I am rational and self interested, the product of my experiences - so if I had it all to do over again, I would. But, if there was a button I could press that would magically bring a few former Fallujah residents back to life - I would press it. BTW, the Starship Troopers reference is interesting because the author, Heinlein, has a Naval Academy grad who used the book as a platform to describe his preferred philosophy of governance. Ayn Rand did the exact same thing with Atlas Shrugged. Both are good reads, but I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I lean more towards Rand's objectivism.

by woodman 11y ago

fapjacks 11y ago

Maybe there are more police officers are in the Army than the Marines. It is definitely a significant demographic in line units in the Army guard and reserves. FWIW we had the opposite happen: When I joined in 2000, there were a lot of college kids and middleupper-middle class people. After the wars started, it was basically people coming off of active duty to serve the rest of their 8 years (four active, four guard/reserve), poor people that couldn't afford college otherwise (myself included) and law enforcement. There was an enormous shift, and a kind of unspoken understanding before Iraq that anybody that didn't want to be in combat needed to get out. And so they found ways -- like PT tests and paperwork (and I suppose drug tests and DUIs) -- to get out.

woodman 11y ago
I knew that the cultures were different, but I never would have guessed that the Army had post-9/11 recruit quality problems - especially for combat arms. When the fourth 9/11 anniversary rolled around the USMC leadership was sweating bullets and pulling out all the stops for retention, because the enlisted pool was the best it had been in living memory. Everybody knows that bootcamp is designed to provide a common experience and rebuild recruits, standardizing to the military's brand of discipline and morality - like interchangeable-parts from the industrial revolution. I've wondered what distance that influence would cover in one's life, because so far it is still holding up in interesting ways. I've talked to guys I hadn't heard from in ten years, and despite differences in profession and family situation, a pretty strong pattern has emerged in uncommon political/philosophical thought. So maybe the influence is much more local. Maybe some soldiers become cops because their drill instructors withheld affection :)
- fapjacks 11y ago
  Heh, "withheld affection"... I'm going to use that. I should say there wasn't so much a problem with recruit quality, as the people I mentioned were just as good at soldiering as the others, but it was certainly different. Most of the men in my family were in the Marine Corps at some point, and I worked with Marines on my second and fourth tours, so I have a little bit of insight into what you mean about the culture difference. Also I should say I always enjoyed working with Marines. And with respect to your other point, I think military service is so valuable for individuals that I strongly support conscription. I believe only good things could come of requiring every person to go serve in the military (or Peace Corps or something) for two years when they turn 18. If we did that, I think the problems we're facing as a nation would see some positive change within a single generation, and I'm confident enough in that statement that I am sure you feel the same way. For all the things I hated about the Army, the physical and psychological tools they equipped me with have helped enrich my life in so many ways. Every time I think about my feelings about this, I picture that scene from Starship Troopers when the guy wheels his chair out from the desk and he's missing a leg and has a prosthetic arm, but he shakes Johnny's hand and says "Good for you. The infantry made me the man I am today"[0] and that's how I personally feel about it. I mean, I have all my fingers and toes, but I feel like that guy. Including the tragedy, I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPTPe33PQY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPTPe33PQY
  - woodman 11y ago
    The antics and over-the-top bravado, reaching levels of self parody, is an acquired taste - the family connection must have provided a measure of inoculation. There is a reason why they always put the infantry barracks in the furthest corner of the base, next to the grenade range - because even Marines get tired of the self promotion. I spent several months instructing in a joint service training program at Quantico, and honestly the Army personnel bugged the hell out of me because it was so hard to get a rise out of them :) The Army's leadership in program management and standards development was always impressive, the transition to COTS procurement in the 90s is a real bummer when you look at all the interesting stuff the military was doing: Ada, IDEF1X, etc. As far as conscription, I think that would be close to the worst thing ever. From a utilitarian perspective: it would be incredibly expensive and would reduce force readiness. From a moral perspective: it is pretty hard to logically justify the threats of violence organic to such an endeavor - threats against the intended benefactors, civilians. I might have agreed with you 10 years ago, if the infantry remained all volunteer under such a program, but the utilitarian arguments no longer appeal to me. I wish I could put my finger on exactly what bit of information flipped the switch in my brain and made me an anarchist, but it was a pretty long process. It probably occurred around the time that I was spending a lot of time studying first order logic and cybernetics (As you can see, I'm a big fan of technology once popular in the 70's). Applying lessons from those fields, related to scaling working systems, to social systems - leads to the idea that a social system founded on an immoral precept will never be able to compete against a system founded otherwise. The test is pretty easy, if a rule has an exception then the problem to which the rule applies was not well defined and this leads to serious scaling issues. I could go on for hours, but I don't think anybody really wants that. Regrets. I don't have any, aside from not taking math more seriously as a kid. I am rational and self interested, the product of my experiences - so if I had it all to do over again, I would. But, if there was a button I could press that would magically bring a few former Fallujah residents back to life - I would press it. BTW, the Starship Troopers reference is interesting because the author, Heinlein, has a Naval Academy grad who used the book as a platform to describe his preferred philosophy of governance. Ayn Rand did the exact same thing with Atlas Shrugged. Both are good reads, but I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that I lean more towards Rand's objectivism.