10 ms·

It's in the privacy policy. I didn't believe what I was reading. Windows 10 is unusable for anyone handling any sensitive data. Think doctors, psychologists,

It's in the privacy policy. I didn't believe what I was reading. Windows 10 is unusable for anyone handling any sensitive data. Think doctors, psychologists, anyone under an NDA. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.aspx https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement/default.asp...

dr_zoidberg 11y ago
Could you point in what part they explicitly say so? I just skimmed through the text and couldn't find any reference to keylogging, in whatever "legal terms-friendly" way they could write it.
- robotkilla 11y ago
  Under Windows click "learn more" and then read under "Input Personalization". I'm considering using a secondary computer (linux) for all of my personal internet activity and making my windows box purely game dev / gaming.
  - dr_zoidberg 11y ago
    It's right there, thank you. It says it can be turned off, and that Cortana will not work after you do that. Considering I live in a Cortana-less country, it shouldn't be a problem if I ever migrate to Win10. However it's be best to see how they handle this.
  - maze-le 11y ago
    I am using the setup you describe since about two years now. I mean, my Arch-Linux machine is bugging me off sometimes, especially when a update cracked something, and I have to downgrade again. But everytime I read news like that, I am glad to have it as my primary machine (where I know exactly what goes on under the hood)...
  - jeremiep 11y ago
    I've stopped gaming on PC about 5 years ago and couldn't be happier. Consoles don't have this constant hardware upgrade cycle and you're free of Windows. In the long run I think I've actually saved a bunch of money; I used to buy high-end graphics cards easily worth two consoles and now I spend that money on more games :) Took me a few weeks to completely replace my Windows workflow in OSX and Ubuntu but I'd say the broader perspective of knowing all three platforms when being a programmer is well worth the investment! I'd have to say, Uncharted played a small role in this transition; I've been blown away by this series and they're not available for PC, so there :)
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      I personally like to mod my games, though, which is borderline-impossible on modern consoles. There are also quite a few games - like Kerbal Space Program - that aren't available for consoles and that I enjoy playing. I personally just game on a Linux box (running Slackware, specifically). I don't get the best selection in the world, but most of the indie games seem to be paying attention to Linux/SteamOS, and said games tend to be the better ones anyway.
    - ZenoArrow 11y ago
      > "Consoles don't have this constant hardware upgrade cycle and you're free of Windows." Do you own an Xbone? I hope not for your sake as Windows 10 is coming to that too. (If I'm being pedantic, other consoles have used Windows in some way. I'm not sure about the Xbox 360 but IIRC the OS for the original Xbox was based on Windows 2000. The Dreamcast also had limited support for Windows CE, I don't think the main OS was based on it, but a few games used it).
deckar01 11y ago
> Cortana is your personal assistant. Cortana works best when it can learn about you and your activities by using data from your device, your Microsoft account, third-party services and other Microsoft services. You can choose whether to enable Cortana, and you can turn Cortana off at any time. > Windows 10, rather than residing as a static software program on your device, key components of Windows are cloud-based, and both cloud and local elements of Windows are updated regularly, providing you with the latest improvements and features. In order to provide this computing experience, we collect data about you, your device, and the way you use Windows. And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it.
- ionised 11y ago
  > And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it. Apart from the data we don't give you a choice about. And the choices we opt to ignore anyway.
culturestate 11y ago
I'm not sure this is what Beltiras is referring to, but in the privacy FAQ for Windows speech, inking, and typing [1], it says this: "When you interact with your Windows device by speaking, writing (handwriting), or typing, Microsoft collects speech, inking, and typing information—including information about your Calendar and People (also known as contacts)—that helps personalize your experience. This information improves your device’s ability to correctly recognize your input, such as your pronunciation and handwriting. You can turn the Speech, inking, and typing setting (which is called Getting to know you) on or off in Settings. Note: If you want to use Cortana, you must have Getting to know you turned on. We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings." 1. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-typing-privacy-faq http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...
- linkydinkandyou 11y ago
  Yes, and during the install process, I was presented with a screen and the option to turn this off.
  - Rantenki 11y ago
    I think you mean, during the install process you selected the tiny "Customize settings" and manually disabled this option, after scrolling down on the page that (on my smaller screen) doesn't have a scrollbar enabled: ref: https://jonathan.porta.codes/2015/07/30/windows-10-seems-to-have-some-scary-privacy-defaults/ https://jonathan.porta.codes/2015/07/30/windows-10-seems-to-... Also, it seems that Win10 ignores some of these settings: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gm1e3/what_windows_10_is_actually_monitoring_regardless/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gm1e3/what_wind...
bunderbunder 11y ago
If this is true, then it really does flabber my gaster. I've no problem with them doing this sort of thing, but it must be opt-in rather than opt-out. Like you say, this isn't just about individual privacy concerns, it's about important legal obligations that people may unwittingly be violating if they use Windows 10.
- Beltiras 11y ago
  This is my point. I do not care one iota under what sort of black-box privacy scheme they maintain they employ. It's a black box and through it all generated information can be passed to Microsoft. "Trust us" is not a good reply by someone with their track record.
fixermark 11y ago
I'm curious: Are doctors, psychologists, and anyone under an NDA forbidden from using the Google search engine or Android voice recognition under a logged-in account? I'd think that the security concerns would be functionally identical.
- userbinator 11y ago
  They are forbidden from disclosing confidential data to those services, which is still somewhat under their control, as opposed to the OS deciding to disclose all the data for them.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    So would a logged-in search for, say, "rheumatoid arthritis" or specific drug names be out of the question if it's in the context of finding treatments for a patient? And does HIPAA also block a family practitioner from using Drive to track patient histories?
    - dogma1138 11y ago
      Yes you can't store patient data on google drive. There are plenty of practice management cloud solutions with cloud storage support which are hipaa compliant.
      - fixermark 11y ago
        Thank you for the clarification! Swinging back to topic: Microsoft has traditionally had a good rapport with the business / government space, so I'll be shocked if they don't already have a plan for addressing the need to protect private data. Maybe the enterprise solution version of Windows 10 will have this feature off by default?
        soneil 11y ago
        There is a nod to Enterprise. The minimum value for HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\DataCollection\AllowTelemetry is 0 on win10 Enterprise, and 1 on consumer editions. (I believe the default value is 3. Lower is more private, but lowest is not offered to consumers)
ewzimm 11y ago
This would be too big an oversight for a company trying to get more business adoption. According to Microsoft, the data is anonymized and run through a virtual shredder before being sent. Here's their statement on it: “Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. Data sent to Microsoft for product improvement is put through rigorous, multi-pass scrubs to remove sensitive or identifiable fields (such as email addresses, passwords and alphanumeric data) and strings are chopped into very small bits and stripped of sequence data to prevent the information from being identified or put back together.” http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggerated http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggera... It amazes me that this information isn't easier to find and I end up being the one defending Microsoft. I definitely recommend using Free Software only if you want to be absolutely sure of confidentiality.
- linkydinkandyou 11y ago
  How do you think Apple gets their spell-check data, or improves Siri's voice recognition? In any event, during the installation process, you do see a screen where you can turn all this off. It's not off by default, but viewing these settings was part of my Windows 10 installation experience.
  - ewzimm 11y ago
    I thought the options to turn off defaults were pretty clear during the installation process. Requests to make options more explicit and visual are reasonable, but it bothers me that Mozilla and others are acting like "choose my default programs" or "custom settings" are too obscure for anyone to understand. You also have the option to delete your history.
  - ionised 11y ago
    Turning those things off still doesn't prevent Windows 10 from sending tracking and usage data to Microsoft though, even when you're only using a Local Account instead of a Microsoft Account.
  - xigency 11y ago
watty 11y ago
Why is it unusable for those people? Will they be held legally liable if something were to leak? Seems like Windows 10 is one of many services collecting anonymous information, what makes it different?
- jeremiep 11y ago
  You can opt-out of services, if you run Windows you can't opt-out of your operating system. That's basically the line I see. I'm fairly certain things under NDA won't go near Windows 10, even if anonymous the data is still leaked. Just like these things currently stay far away from 3rd-party services.
balabaster 11y ago
Er... reading the "Learn More" option under the "Personal Data We Collect" heading sends up giant red flags... why would anyone agree to this, ever? I don't care how good your data gets anonymized; time and again, it's been shown that anonymized data can be fingerprinted and de-anonymized over time. Whether or not this is happening, this should raise legitimate concerns with people who are considering, or who have already upgraded to Windows 10.

dr_zoidberg 11y ago

Could you point in what part they explicitly say so? I just skimmed through the text and couldn't find any reference to keylogging, in whatever "legal terms-friendly" way they could write it.

robotkilla 11y ago
Under Windows click "learn more" and then read under "Input Personalization". I'm considering using a secondary computer (linux) for all of my personal internet activity and making my windows box purely game dev / gaming.
- dr_zoidberg 11y ago
  It's right there, thank you. It says it can be turned off, and that Cortana will not work after you do that. Considering I live in a Cortana-less country, it shouldn't be a problem if I ever migrate to Win10. However it's be best to see how they handle this.
- maze-le 11y ago
  I am using the setup you describe since about two years now. I mean, my Arch-Linux machine is bugging me off sometimes, especially when a update cracked something, and I have to downgrade again. But everytime I read news like that, I am glad to have it as my primary machine (where I know exactly what goes on under the hood)...
- jeremiep 11y ago
  I've stopped gaming on PC about 5 years ago and couldn't be happier. Consoles don't have this constant hardware upgrade cycle and you're free of Windows. In the long run I think I've actually saved a bunch of money; I used to buy high-end graphics cards easily worth two consoles and now I spend that money on more games :) Took me a few weeks to completely replace my Windows workflow in OSX and Ubuntu but I'd say the broader perspective of knowing all three platforms when being a programmer is well worth the investment! I'd have to say, Uncharted played a small role in this transition; I've been blown away by this series and they're not available for PC, so there :)
  - yellowapple 11y ago
    I personally like to mod my games, though, which is borderline-impossible on modern consoles. There are also quite a few games - like Kerbal Space Program - that aren't available for consoles and that I enjoy playing. I personally just game on a Linux box (running Slackware, specifically). I don't get the best selection in the world, but most of the indie games seem to be paying attention to Linux/SteamOS, and said games tend to be the better ones anyway.
  - ZenoArrow 11y ago
    > "Consoles don't have this constant hardware upgrade cycle and you're free of Windows." Do you own an Xbone? I hope not for your sake as Windows 10 is coming to that too. (If I'm being pedantic, other consoles have used Windows in some way. I'm not sure about the Xbox 360 but IIRC the OS for the original Xbox was based on Windows 2000. The Dreamcast also had limited support for Windows CE, I don't think the main OS was based on it, but a few games used it).

deckar01 11y ago

> Cortana is your personal assistant. Cortana works best when it can learn about you and your activities by using data from your device, your Microsoft account, third-party services and other Microsoft services. You can choose whether to enable Cortana, and you can turn Cortana off at any time. > Windows 10, rather than residing as a static software program on your device, key components of Windows are cloud-based, and both cloud and local elements of Windows are updated regularly, providing you with the latest improvements and features. In order to provide this computing experience, we collect data about you, your device, and the way you use Windows. And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it.

ionised 11y ago
> And because Windows is personal to you, we give you choices about the personal data we collect and how we use it. Apart from the data we don't give you a choice about. And the choices we opt to ignore anyway.

culturestate 11y ago

I'm not sure this is what Beltiras is referring to, but in the privacy FAQ for Windows speech, inking, and typing [1], it says this: "When you interact with your Windows device by speaking, writing (handwriting), or typing, Microsoft collects speech, inking, and typing information—including information about your Calendar and People (also known as contacts)—that helps personalize your experience. This information improves your device’s ability to correctly recognize your input, such as your pronunciation and handwriting. You can turn the Speech, inking, and typing setting (which is called Getting to know you) on or off in Settings. Note: If you want to use Cortana, you must have Getting to know you turned on. We also collect your typed and handwritten words to improve character recognition and provide you with a personalized user dictionary and text completion suggestions. Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. You can turn the Send Microsoft info about how I write setting on or off in Settings." 1. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-typing-privacy-faq http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/speech-inking-...

linkydinkandyou 11y ago
Yes, and during the install process, I was presented with a screen and the option to turn this off.
- Rantenki 11y ago
  I think you mean, during the install process you selected the tiny "Customize settings" and manually disabled this option, after scrolling down on the page that (on my smaller screen) doesn't have a scrollbar enabled: ref: https://jonathan.porta.codes/2015/07/30/windows-10-seems-to-have-some-scary-privacy-defaults/ https://jonathan.porta.codes/2015/07/30/windows-10-seems-to-... Also, it seems that Win10 ignores some of these settings: https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gm1e3/what_windows_10_is_actually_monitoring_regardless/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/3gm1e3/what_wind...

bunderbunder 11y ago

If this is true, then it really does flabber my gaster. I've no problem with them doing this sort of thing, but it must be opt-in rather than opt-out. Like you say, this isn't just about individual privacy concerns, it's about important legal obligations that people may unwittingly be violating if they use Windows 10.

Beltiras 11y ago
This is my point. I do not care one iota under what sort of black-box privacy scheme they maintain they employ. It's a black box and through it all generated information can be passed to Microsoft. "Trust us" is not a good reply by someone with their track record.

fixermark 11y ago

I'm curious: Are doctors, psychologists, and anyone under an NDA forbidden from using the Google search engine or Android voice recognition under a logged-in account? I'd think that the security concerns would be functionally identical.

userbinator 11y ago
They are forbidden from disclosing confidential data to those services, which is still somewhat under their control, as opposed to the OS deciding to disclose all the data for them.
- fixermark 11y ago
  So would a logged-in search for, say, "rheumatoid arthritis" or specific drug names be out of the question if it's in the context of finding treatments for a patient? And does HIPAA also block a family practitioner from using Drive to track patient histories?
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Yes you can't store patient data on google drive. There are plenty of practice management cloud solutions with cloud storage support which are hipaa compliant.
    - fixermark 11y ago
      Thank you for the clarification! Swinging back to topic: Microsoft has traditionally had a good rapport with the business / government space, so I'll be shocked if they don't already have a plan for addressing the need to protect private data. Maybe the enterprise solution version of Windows 10 will have this feature off by default?
      - soneil 11y ago
        There is a nod to Enterprise. The minimum value for HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Policies\DataCollection\AllowTelemetry is 0 on win10 Enterprise, and 1 on consumer editions. (I believe the default value is 3. Lower is more private, but lowest is not offered to consumers)

ewzimm 11y ago

This would be too big an oversight for a company trying to get more business adoption. According to Microsoft, the data is anonymized and run through a virtual shredder before being sent. Here's their statement on it: “Some of this data is stored on your device and some is sent to Microsoft to help improve these services. Data sent to Microsoft for product improvement is put through rigorous, multi-pass scrubs to remove sensitive or identifiable fields (such as email addresses, passwords and alphanumeric data) and strings are chopped into very small bits and stripped of sequence data to prevent the information from being identified or put back together.” http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggerated http://blog.laptopmag.com/windows-10-privacy-issues-exaggera... It amazes me that this information isn't easier to find and I end up being the one defending Microsoft. I definitely recommend using Free Software only if you want to be absolutely sure of confidentiality.

linkydinkandyou 11y ago
How do you think Apple gets their spell-check data, or improves Siri's voice recognition? In any event, during the installation process, you do see a screen where you can turn all this off. It's not off by default, but viewing these settings was part of my Windows 10 installation experience.
- ewzimm 11y ago
  I thought the options to turn off defaults were pretty clear during the installation process. Requests to make options more explicit and visual are reasonable, but it bothers me that Mozilla and others are acting like "choose my default programs" or "custom settings" are too obscure for anyone to understand. You also have the option to delete your history.
- ionised 11y ago
  Turning those things off still doesn't prevent Windows 10 from sending tracking and usage data to Microsoft though, even when you're only using a Local Account instead of a Microsoft Account.
- xigency 11y ago

watty 11y ago

Why is it unusable for those people? Will they be held legally liable if something were to leak? Seems like Windows 10 is one of many services collecting anonymous information, what makes it different?

jeremiep 11y ago
You can opt-out of services, if you run Windows you can't opt-out of your operating system. That's basically the line I see. I'm fairly certain things under NDA won't go near Windows 10, even if anonymous the data is still leaked. Just like these things currently stay far away from 3rd-party services.

balabaster 11y ago

Er... reading the "Learn More" option under the "Personal Data We Collect" heading sends up giant red flags... why would anyone agree to this, ever? I don't care how good your data gets anonymized; time and again, it's been shown that anonymized data can be fingerprinted and de-anonymized over time. Whether or not this is happening, this should raise legitimate concerns with people who are considering, or who have already upgraded to Windows 10.