6 ms·

How a UN intern was forced to live in a tent in Geneva

30 points by codewithcheese 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago
Interns being unpaid is still better than most organizations working with volunteers that they also expect to pay a fairly large sum for the privilege of volunteering.
- a3n 11y ago
  Are you saying unpaid internships are OK because there's something worse, or are you calling out the practice of paying to volunteer, or something else?
  - ctdonath 11y ago
    He's saying there are organizations that "pay negative salary": interns must PAY to be there. Paid internships is reasonable (especially in a culture of compulsory minimum wages), unpaid internships are also reasonable (when the two agree it's the work & experience which is traded, and they agree to forego money transfer), but there are questionable groups requiring the intern pay for the privilege/experience of working there.
    - rtpg 11y ago
      I don't understand how unpaid internships that involve any form of work (that is to say, anything beyond observing the company) is legal. A company is asking you to do something (what others would call work). Just because you have a Masters degree doesn't make bringing coffee to people not work. The reason is obvious though: loopholes in minimum wage laws to please industries based around underpaying interns. A friend of mine did his final internship in a code house that was based entirely on intern work. One head guy was getting contracts, and pulling in local students to do the coding, and cycling the students out after 3 months (right before the French legal limit on unpaid internships). Quite a mess
- rayiner 11y ago
  Wait who does that? I've never heard such a thing.
  - wingerlang 11y ago
    Imagine someone who goes to Africa for a summer to help with, say, lions. They pay to do that. Same with other 'exotic' programs I'd assume.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    It's actually an industry by now. No need to downvote... http://www.globalvolunteers.org/faqs/faq7.asp http://www.globalvolunteers.org/faqs/faq7.asp
  - tomkinstinch 11y ago
    They're tax-deductible vacations, at least if the organizing group is a 501(c)(3). I've done a (paid) volunteer vacation with the American Hiking Society[1], building a new section of the Continental Divide Trail in the Gila National Forest of NM. We paid for airfare and then a small "donation" fee that went almost entirely to food for the volunteers. It was a way to participate in a well-organized endeavor in a beautiful place while doing something I already enjoy doing back home (trail work), under the tutelage of a Forest Service crew. Not sure if all such paid volunteer trips are worthwhile, but at least the hiking society ones are reasonable; they're low-overhead and they handle logistics. 1. http://www.americanhiking.org/volunteer-vacations/ http://www.americanhiking.org/volunteer-vacations/
  - rhino369 11y ago
    Northwestern Law's environmental clinic? We worked there and paid like 6-7k a semester for the honor. Still a great deal compared to sitting through a boring ass class though.
    - rayiner 11y ago
      Touché.
ctdonath 11y ago
Newsflash: young adult learns the harsh reality that living in highly desirable area is expensive, and adapts without whining by finding a pleasant and affordable alternative; local media freaks out. Heck, I'd like to spend a summer working in Geneva (paid or not) and living in a tent on a mountain lake. Kudos to the kid for making it work in a way he'll long remember fondly.
- wereHamster 11y ago
  I wouldn't say Geneva is highly desirable area. There are far nicer places in switzerland if you love nature and all that (IMHO of course).
  - ovi256 11y ago
    I think you're mistaking 'total desirable score' with 'natural beauty score'. I think the simplest model that's not too wrong is that the total score of a location is the sum of natural beauty with other factors, such as job availability, security, etc. But, OTOH, the various factors are weighted by personal preferences, and you have expressed a very high personal preference for natural beauty. Now, I would like to know if that is also a 'revealed preference' (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019913).
  - crdb 11y ago
    The one advantage of Geneva vs other Swiss cities if you are cost-conscious is you can commute across the border and live in France, where living costs diminish almost proportionally with commuting time. Ferney is perhaps half Geneva rent, if you're willing to go all the way to the villages at the base of the mountain (20 minutes drive if your office is near the airport), you can get a 3-bedroom house for what gets you a rat-infested studio near Cornavin (been there done that, thought about the French house VERY hard). This is without mentioning things like cars or groceries which are a LOT cheaper especially since the peg was removed. And of course you keep paying tax in Switzerland as a "frontalier" (25%, it's the highest canton...). And you can use GVA which is an EasyJet hub to jet around Europe on weekends on the cheap. I believe some Germans do this with Zurich and Zug from Konstanz, although that is a bit more hardcore with a 45 minute drive without traffic. Konstanz is another frontalier city with good quality of life, ultra low costs (4 euro ostrich fillet steak delivered to your office! don't ask...) and plenty of culture and food options. Mountains-wise I might be biased, but I've yet to meet anything that beats the biodiversity, food, low cost and incredible variety of options in Haute Savoie. Just stay away from the tourist hubs and start from the smaller village resorts. The Swiss side just feels more barren, more touristy (or friendlier to non-hikers, which are there in force) and definitely a lot more expensive.
sbank 11y ago
> [...] the United Nations practice (one it shares with big business and some European Union institutions) of employing interns on an unpaid basis. It's only bad when private businesses do it, of course.
wereHamster 11y ago
Living in a tent during summer in Switzerland is not that bad. A friend of mine did that. And he was far from the only one on the campground.
awendt 11y ago
Compare this statement: > "Interns get a lot of experience," says Ahmad Fawzi, head of the UN's information service in Geneva. "First-hand knowledge about how the international system works: it's invaluable for them, and they have fun." (while not paying your interns) to Article 23 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights: > (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
- hedgew 11y ago
  Not to mention that unpaid internships decrease economic equality and social mobility by automatically disqualifying those who can not afford to work without pay.
- justincormack 11y ago
  Apparently the said that a resolution was passed forbidding them from paying interns. Clearly they should not take on interns in that situation but they continued to take unpaid ones alas.
pepijndevos 11y ago
I have done similar things for no good reason at all. I wanted to know what it was like to study CS at a university, so I put up my tent on a nearby campsite and walked into some random classes. For medium-term solutions, it beats staying in hotels or hunting apartments. You simply put up your tent or caravan and have your own private place.
- cafard 11y ago
  Yes, I knew a guy who worked in construction at Vail and lived in a tent. It was summer, and I don't know how long he did this.
mikerichards 11y ago
Make those assholes pay their parking tickets in NY and get the guy a room
basseq 11y ago
One of the problems with unpaid internships is the system favors the wealthy: if you can't afford (via "[your] family and [your] own funds") to buy your way in, you won't get "first-hand knowledge about how the international system works". From the article: "I am from a developing country," says Sabine, "and I know of many people from my university who would have loved this opportunity but could probably not afford to do it." Populism aside; 1%-er arguments aside—from an organizational perspective, you're missing out on talent who can't pay. (From the other side, I laughed a hiring manager off the phone in college who told me their internship [in Manhattan] was unpaid. You may be selecting for "passion", but the best* talent knows their worth.) (* Not saying I'm the best, but I had other options, as will anyone reasonable.)
cozzyd 11y ago
At the very least, organizations should offer unpaid interns subsidized loans.
jgamman 11y ago
not totally unheard of here in NZ and i think he was a kiwi(?). i remember the story 10-15 years back about how a couple of guys claimed unemployment benefit and lived in a cave in one of our national parks and hitchhiked up the mountain to ski every day. what can you say? it's a national park, you're supposed to go camping in it...

Interns being unpaid is still better than most organizations working with volunteers that they also expect to pay a fairly large sum for the privilege of volunteering.

a3n 11y ago
Are you saying unpaid internships are OK because there's something worse, or are you calling out the practice of paying to volunteer, or something else?
- ctdonath 11y ago
  He's saying there are organizations that "pay negative salary": interns must PAY to be there. Paid internships is reasonable (especially in a culture of compulsory minimum wages), unpaid internships are also reasonable (when the two agree it's the work & experience which is traded, and they agree to forego money transfer), but there are questionable groups requiring the intern pay for the privilege/experience of working there.
  - rtpg 11y ago
    I don't understand how unpaid internships that involve any form of work (that is to say, anything beyond observing the company) is legal. A company is asking you to do something (what others would call work). Just because you have a Masters degree doesn't make bringing coffee to people not work. The reason is obvious though: loopholes in minimum wage laws to please industries based around underpaying interns. A friend of mine did his final internship in a code house that was based entirely on intern work. One head guy was getting contracts, and pulling in local students to do the coding, and cycling the students out after 3 months (right before the French legal limit on unpaid internships). Quite a mess
rayiner 11y ago
Wait who does that? I've never heard such a thing.
- wingerlang 11y ago
  Imagine someone who goes to Africa for a summer to help with, say, lions. They pay to do that. Same with other 'exotic' programs I'd assume.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  It's actually an industry by now. No need to downvote... http://www.globalvolunteers.org/faqs/faq7.asp http://www.globalvolunteers.org/faqs/faq7.asp
- tomkinstinch 11y ago
  They're tax-deductible vacations, at least if the organizing group is a 501(c)(3). I've done a (paid) volunteer vacation with the American Hiking Society[1], building a new section of the Continental Divide Trail in the Gila National Forest of NM. We paid for airfare and then a small "donation" fee that went almost entirely to food for the volunteers. It was a way to participate in a well-organized endeavor in a beautiful place while doing something I already enjoy doing back home (trail work), under the tutelage of a Forest Service crew. Not sure if all such paid volunteer trips are worthwhile, but at least the hiking society ones are reasonable; they're low-overhead and they handle logistics. 1. http://www.americanhiking.org/volunteer-vacations/ http://www.americanhiking.org/volunteer-vacations/
- rhino369 11y ago
  Northwestern Law's environmental clinic? We worked there and paid like 6-7k a semester for the honor. Still a great deal compared to sitting through a boring ass class though.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Touché.

ctdonath 11y ago

Newsflash: young adult learns the harsh reality that living in highly desirable area is expensive, and adapts without whining by finding a pleasant and affordable alternative; local media freaks out. Heck, I'd like to spend a summer working in Geneva (paid or not) and living in a tent on a mountain lake. Kudos to the kid for making it work in a way he'll long remember fondly.

wereHamster 11y ago
I wouldn't say Geneva is highly desirable area. There are far nicer places in switzerland if you love nature and all that (IMHO of course).
- ovi256 11y ago
  I think you're mistaking 'total desirable score' with 'natural beauty score'. I think the simplest model that's not too wrong is that the total score of a location is the sum of natural beauty with other factors, such as job availability, security, etc. But, OTOH, the various factors are weighted by personal preferences, and you have expressed a very high personal preference for natural beauty. Now, I would like to know if that is also a 'revealed preference' (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019913 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10019913).
- crdb 11y ago
  The one advantage of Geneva vs other Swiss cities if you are cost-conscious is you can commute across the border and live in France, where living costs diminish almost proportionally with commuting time. Ferney is perhaps half Geneva rent, if you're willing to go all the way to the villages at the base of the mountain (20 minutes drive if your office is near the airport), you can get a 3-bedroom house for what gets you a rat-infested studio near Cornavin (been there done that, thought about the French house VERY hard). This is without mentioning things like cars or groceries which are a LOT cheaper especially since the peg was removed. And of course you keep paying tax in Switzerland as a "frontalier" (25%, it's the highest canton...). And you can use GVA which is an EasyJet hub to jet around Europe on weekends on the cheap. I believe some Germans do this with Zurich and Zug from Konstanz, although that is a bit more hardcore with a 45 minute drive without traffic. Konstanz is another frontalier city with good quality of life, ultra low costs (4 euro ostrich fillet steak delivered to your office! don't ask...) and plenty of culture and food options. Mountains-wise I might be biased, but I've yet to meet anything that beats the biodiversity, food, low cost and incredible variety of options in Haute Savoie. Just stay away from the tourist hubs and start from the smaller village resorts. The Swiss side just feels more barren, more touristy (or friendlier to non-hikers, which are there in force) and definitely a lot more expensive.

sbank 11y ago

> [...] the United Nations practice (one it shares with big business and some European Union institutions) of employing interns on an unpaid basis. It's only bad when private businesses do it, of course.

wereHamster 11y ago

Living in a tent during summer in Switzerland is not that bad. A friend of mine did that. And he was far from the only one on the campground.

awendt 11y ago

Compare this statement: > "Interns get a lot of experience," says Ahmad Fawzi, head of the UN's information service in Geneva. "First-hand knowledge about how the international system works: it's invaluable for them, and they have fun." (while not paying your interns) to Article 23 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights: > (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

hedgew 11y ago
Not to mention that unpaid internships decrease economic equality and social mobility by automatically disqualifying those who can not afford to work without pay.
justincormack 11y ago
Apparently the said that a resolution was passed forbidding them from paying interns. Clearly they should not take on interns in that situation but they continued to take unpaid ones alas.

pepijndevos 11y ago

I have done similar things for no good reason at all. I wanted to know what it was like to study CS at a university, so I put up my tent on a nearby campsite and walked into some random classes. For medium-term solutions, it beats staying in hotels or hunting apartments. You simply put up your tent or caravan and have your own private place.

cafard 11y ago
Yes, I knew a guy who worked in construction at Vail and lived in a tent. It was summer, and I don't know how long he did this.

mikerichards 11y ago

Make those assholes pay their parking tickets in NY and get the guy a room

basseq 11y ago

One of the problems with unpaid internships is the system favors the wealthy: if you can't afford (via "[your] family and [your] own funds") to buy your way in, you won't get "first-hand knowledge about how the international system works". From the article: "I am from a developing country," says Sabine, "and I know of many people from my university who would have loved this opportunity but could probably not afford to do it." Populism aside; 1%-er arguments aside—from an organizational perspective, you're missing out on talent who can't pay. (From the other side, I laughed a hiring manager off the phone in college who told me their internship [in Manhattan] was unpaid. You may be selecting for "passion", but the best* talent knows their worth.) (* Not saying I'm the best, but I had other options, as will anyone reasonable.)

cozzyd 11y ago

At the very least, organizations should offer unpaid interns subsidized loans.

jgamman 11y ago

not totally unheard of here in NZ and i think he was a kiwi(?). i remember the story 10-15 years back about how a couple of guys claimed unemployment benefit and lived in a cave in one of our national parks and hitchhiked up the mountain to ski every day. what can you say? it's a national park, you're supposed to go camping in it...