12 ms·

NYC Mesh is trying to get around the big ISPs one node at a time

127 points by winstonford 11y ago

kator 11y ago
Reminds me of the old days of KA9Q and pushing IP over packet radio. Tech has come such a long way this might actually be a real alternative. That said bandwidth management will become a real issue quickly since it's hard for the general public to understand the shared nature of a mesh.
- PaulHoule 11y ago
  Mesh networks are for the birds. For those who want to enable codependent telecoms to not show moral fiber they are appealing, but one side way to make a radio network slow and unreliable is to retransmit and retransmit and retransmit... If I wanted to have bad internet I can call up my telco and pay an arm and a leg for DSL.
  - look_lookatme 11y ago
    If only there was an entire class of protocols developed over the last 30 years to negotiate and route network traffic efficiently.
    - PaulHoule 11y ago
      These work well for wired networks, but not for ad hoc wireless networks. Mesh networks are on of the many areas of CS that produces endless conference proceedings but no working systems because the DOD has the hots for it.
      - nycmesh 11y ago
        There a many huge mesh networks all over the world, just not so many in this country. Guifi in Spain has 29,208 active nodes so there is no argument that mesh doesn't scale. https://guifi.net/en/node/38392 https://guifi.net/en/node/38392
        makomk 11y ago
        I can't find much in the way of specific technical information in English, but from what I can tell Guifi has are tiers of nodes, ordinary nodes and supernodes, where nodes connect only to supernodes and the supernodes have fixed, manually configured directional radio links to other supernodes. It's a lot easier to get thirty thousand nodes on a mesh network if the vast majority of them aren't actually taking part in the meshing and the ones that are use fixed infrastructure links. It basically avoids all the inconvenient "mesh" part.
pjc50 11y ago
Interesting decision to not have it connected to the full Internet. That makes it essentially a local, social, network like the old BBS scene. You use the mesh to talk to people, not so much for streaming media. That will save a lot of bandwidth. It also keeps it enthusiast-only and reduces the need to work out how to handle abuse.
- comrh 11y ago
  I hope these aren't enthusiast-only. The idea of a 311 type service for a community with craigslist type services, job postings, city info and social aspects would be great for low income people. You could put all of wikipedia on it and partner with Khan Academy to give free access to learning to every kid in the city.
- nycmesh 11y ago
  Hi I'm Brian at NYC Mesh. Yes it works as a local social network with our ".mesh" addresses, but most nodes are also internet gateways so they act as normal wifi access points. https://nycmesh.net/faq/ https://nycmesh.net/faq/
- SolarNet 11y ago
  I bet they can eventually build a co-op to pay for connectivity from the Mesh to the CO. Basically a community paid for high bandwidth connection out of the mesh to the internet. Which basically turn the mesh into a last mile network.
jamesblonde 11y ago
Hi. I do research on Guifi.net (part of www.clommunity-project.eu), referenced in the article. Guifi.net has 30k+ nodes, and provides Internet access. We have also built decentralized services specifically for these type of "Community Networks" - including a decentralized search services, and a Video-on-Demand service (www.decentrify.io - to be released this month). Happy to answer questions.
- agopaul 11y ago
  This is very interesting, but I wonder: how do you guys handle abuses? Especially when it comes to sharing the home connection to the 'outer' Internet with strangers. Do you keep logs? If so, how do you handle the privacy part? I think in part this is a problem that also Tor relay owners have (minus the log keeping obviously).
  - jamesblonde 11y ago
    Sharing the home connection outside is encouraged, in fact. There are logs, of course. Individual nodes can be kicked out if needed, as all routing is BGP based.
    - nanijoe 11y ago
      Does each node hold a full BGP routing table? That could be a problem as the number of nodes increases
      - jamesblonde 11y ago
        Nope. There are are domains. What's also interesting is that GPS coords are used extensively for joining domains and accessing services nearby. We have our own UNIX distribution now for cloud services. It's Called 'cloudy'
- vonklaus 11y ago
  Totally awesome, thanks. Could you break down costs (ideally in dollars) for getting a network up and running. To clarify, how much would infrastructure cost initially for the setup and also to the end user. How much did it cost to connect those 30k nodes, how many people are served and what kind of speed and bandwith are you seeing? Sorry to lob a ton of ?s at you but this is SUPER INTERESTING. Thanks.
mrspeaker 11y ago
Awww, I love this idea... I am sitting in a cafe in Brooklyn reading the article. I checked the available networks and found an "nycmesh" ssid. Went to ev.mesh and got the "this is not the internet"! So cool, but I tried to create an account but got "Error message: can't send email", and I can't log in. Still, I love the idea though - feels like a secret internet club!
- vcavallo 11y ago
  Hey, do you happen to be in Dumbo?
  - mrspeaker 11y ago
    Yup! Spooky! Internet on NYCMesh is much faster than WelcomeBRC ;)
    - vcavallo 11y ago
      you, sir, are on my node. enjoy!
- nycmesh 11y ago
  Oops, that is my server! I'll fix it today. What café are you in? We don't even know about this access point. Try chat.mesh
- CPLX 11y ago
  Are you at Brooklyn Roasting Co?
lorenzhs 11y ago
In Germany, there is http://freifunk.net/en/ http://freifunk.net/en/ (the English wepage is a bit sparse) which has the capabilities to do mesh networking where nodes are dense enough. Since this is rarely the case, it's a great way for people to share their internet connections with the world without taking on any liability. All Freifunk data is routed through their VPN, and they are registered as a provider, so they're not liable under Störerhaftung.
- nitinics 11y ago
  One of the strategy NYCMesh took for where line of sight was not available was to tunnel through the Internet to mesh. This would enable anyone to join the mesh without line of sight requirement, and once more and more people join and the density increases, they can get their dependency on Internet Tunnels away, by connecting/hopping through line-of-sight nodes.
- kuschku 11y ago
  Warning, only Freifunk Berlin is an ISP, all other Freifunk communities tunnel through a VPN to Switzerland. Source: I hang around in the #ffki channel on HackInt for the Freifunk Kiel community quite often.
colanderman 11y ago
There's a commercial version of this in parts of Boston: http://www.netblazr.com/ http://www.netblazr.com/
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Yeah, but their coverage is poor. Comcast has Boston completely strangled.
  - mjcohen 11y ago
    Boston is strangled in many ways. Miraculously, they evaded the Olympics.
- BostonEnginerd 11y ago
  There's a small group of us in Boston working on a free meshnet as well. We're hanging out on #bostonmeshnet on Freenode and there is a mailing list here: https://lists.projectmesh.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/boston https://lists.projectmesh.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bosto...
paulsutter 11y ago
You could support Netflix by adding a Bitcoin-based system of transit settlements. This could provide the capital to really scale up, without any central control or administration. I Of course the cooperative part of the network remains free. A payment system just makes expensive infrastructure possible as part of the system, like fiber under the oceans. A decentralized payment system could allow massive scale by allowing investors to finance and make money off network segments, repeaters, etc. Real competition forces them to compete on pricing and quality. One can imagine a smart routing algorithm that takes cost and quality into account. I mention this because I'm a skeptic about many proposed applications for Bitcoin, but infrastructure with no central control is a great use case. Bitcoin needs some solid use cases before it can really take off. Edit: any comments along with the downvotes? I was hoping for a conversation. I know its crazy but I'm speculating about creating an entire new internet.
- adrianmacneil 11y ago
  100% agree. Of all the potential use cases for Bitcoin, decentralized protocol-level payments (for network bandwidth, torrent seeding etc) are one of the most compelling. I've seen this being done for torrents already, but would love to see someone try it out for negotiating bandwidth for wifi/mesh networks.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
  Maybe something more along the branch of Namecoin, but optimized for micropayments to pay bandwidth providers daily rates? Thinking long term, setting some type of expiration system after coins are mined, by a set decomposition rate into the protocol to solve both the hording/anti-economy issue inherent to bitcoin's hard limit on coin supply. Coins expiring might potentially help with ledger bloat? Avoiding potential abuse of "juggling" the coins by transferring them between several wallets to avoid the decomposition rate would be the first issue that comes to mind.
adrianmacneil 11y ago
What would it take to set this up in a new city? It would be awesome to have this in SF as well.
- unoti 11y ago
  This might interest you http://www.broadband-hamnet.org/ http://www.broadband-hamnet.org/ it's a mesh network using modified wifi access points for setting up a very high bandwidth mesh network. Quite a few people in my area (Pleasanton, Livermore) are using it. I'm sure there are people in the SF area. This website would be a good starting point for finding them. Also there are some of the worlds best ham radio clubs down in San Fran and the South Bay the towuld be a great place to start in finding people that want to get serious about mesh networks. Another related field that is fun is microwave community cations, and I'm pretty sure there are some active groups in your area for that.
winstonford 11y ago
There is an interesting symbiosis developing between NYC Mesh and my startup Canopy: the data mesh wants power, the power mesh wants data. Both want the other to be more resilient and less expensive. In the pic at the top of the article, taken on my rooftop, you can see a white, round thing. This is a ubiquiti nanobeam wifi radio. Just below it you can see a solar panel. It belongs to an off-grid solar power unit called Ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra. The nanobeam is now bolted directly onto the solar power unit Ra enabling the node to support the local data mesh during a blackout. On the roof and inside Ra, a beaglebone black runs the http://sunpress.co http://sunpress.co network of websites directly on off-grid solar power. Ra also delivers solar power for lighting and usb charging in the form of the Canopy Cuba table http://canopyrising.com/#cuba http://canopyrising.com/#cuba , a bedside table that stores days worth of power and is found in the http://tremolino.co http://tremolino.co guest rooms 1 floor down. Canopy aims to create a marketplace where neighbors who invest in the products to generate solar power trade with those who invest in capacity to store it. Unlike traditional solar and storage, which is limited to property owners as it requires financing, design, permitting, and installation; Canopy is accessible renters and owners as it is low cost and requires no financing, no design, no permitting, and no install.
- oconnore 11y ago
  How does the cost and resiliency compare to purchasing energy from the grid? For reference, I buy 100% wind source power from Xcell @ $0.14 / kWh. Reliability is generally very good, but to compare apples to apples it would cost ~$500 to purchase a backup generator [1] for the 1-2 hours of outages we have every year. [1]: a battery system would fulfill a similar role, but I'm not sure of the cost -- and for something that I would essentially never use, it may actually be better for the environment to keep the generator.
  - winstonford 11y ago
    Great question @oconnore. 2 answers. 1. The target price for Ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra is $600-800, just under what you would pay for a 1kw emergency generator. Initial market is apartment renters in flat-roof, multi-floor urban buildings, who can not run generators indoors b/c of fumes, etc. 2. Battery capacity built into the Cuba table http://canopyrising.com/#cuba http://canopyrising.com/#cuba allows power arbitrage, buying power at the lowest price during off-peak hours to charge up, then drawing from batteries during peak pricing on the grid. In NYC, Conedison sells power for 7-19 cents during the day, but from midnight until 8a, it costs just over a penny. Voluntary time of use programs are common across the country, but few products exist to leverage them. http://www.coned.com/customercentral/energyresvoluntary.asp http://www.coned.com/customercentral/energyresvoluntary.asp
cthyon 11y ago
Really cool idea. Does anyone know about the legality of sharing internet through meshes as referenced in the article, "RHI pays its internet subscription to Brooklyn Fiber, and redistributes this coverage for free to a dozen parts of Red Hook." ? Or whether ISPs would be able to shutdown mesh networks for sharing internet subscription like this?
- wyldfire 11y ago
  How different is this from backbone peering? It's certainly "legal" and RHI would only need worry about whether it's permitted as a part of their service. Presumably it is permitted, but certainly not all providers would allow it. Baked into the cost of the service no doubt.
- justizin 11y ago
  Brooklyn Fiber is a commercial provider, so buying access from someone like them is basically how an ISP becomes an ISP. If you were sharing your Cable or DSL, you might run into issues with your contract. In both cases you would have to be prepared to handle abuse complaints, or your IP space would likely just get blocked from large parts of the internet, or at least major services. For instance, the administrator of an office network may receive DMCA complaints about employees downloading movies or somesuch. If these continue, at some point your internet provider will terminate your connection. The same would be a concern for anonymous internet sharing.
dinoby 11y ago
We tried something similar in many cities around Ireland in early 2000's when the first 802.11b antennas were coming out - https://web.archive.org/web/20030420231414/http://www.dublinwan.org/dw/FrontPage https://web.archive.org/web/20030420231414/http://www.dublin...

127 points by winstonford 11y ago

kator 11y ago

Reminds me of the old days of KA9Q and pushing IP over packet radio. Tech has come such a long way this might actually be a real alternative. That said bandwidth management will become a real issue quickly since it's hard for the general public to understand the shared nature of a mesh.

PaulHoule 11y ago
Mesh networks are for the birds. For those who want to enable codependent telecoms to not show moral fiber they are appealing, but one side way to make a radio network slow and unreliable is to retransmit and retransmit and retransmit... If I wanted to have bad internet I can call up my telco and pay an arm and a leg for DSL.
- look_lookatme 11y ago
  If only there was an entire class of protocols developed over the last 30 years to negotiate and route network traffic efficiently.
  - PaulHoule 11y ago
    These work well for wired networks, but not for ad hoc wireless networks. Mesh networks are on of the many areas of CS that produces endless conference proceedings but no working systems because the DOD has the hots for it.
    - nycmesh 11y ago
      There a many huge mesh networks all over the world, just not so many in this country. Guifi in Spain has 29,208 active nodes so there is no argument that mesh doesn't scale. https://guifi.net/en/node/38392 https://guifi.net/en/node/38392
      - makomk 11y ago
        I can't find much in the way of specific technical information in English, but from what I can tell Guifi has are tiers of nodes, ordinary nodes and supernodes, where nodes connect only to supernodes and the supernodes have fixed, manually configured directional radio links to other supernodes. It's a lot easier to get thirty thousand nodes on a mesh network if the vast majority of them aren't actually taking part in the meshing and the ones that are use fixed infrastructure links. It basically avoids all the inconvenient "mesh" part.

pjc50 11y ago

Interesting decision to not have it connected to the full Internet. That makes it essentially a local, social, network like the old BBS scene. You use the mesh to talk to people, not so much for streaming media. That will save a lot of bandwidth. It also keeps it enthusiast-only and reduces the need to work out how to handle abuse.

comrh 11y ago
I hope these aren't enthusiast-only. The idea of a 311 type service for a community with craigslist type services, job postings, city info and social aspects would be great for low income people. You could put all of wikipedia on it and partner with Khan Academy to give free access to learning to every kid in the city.
nycmesh 11y ago
Hi I'm Brian at NYC Mesh. Yes it works as a local social network with our ".mesh" addresses, but most nodes are also internet gateways so they act as normal wifi access points. https://nycmesh.net/faq/ https://nycmesh.net/faq/
SolarNet 11y ago
I bet they can eventually build a co-op to pay for connectivity from the Mesh to the CO. Basically a community paid for high bandwidth connection out of the mesh to the internet. Which basically turn the mesh into a last mile network.

jamesblonde 11y ago

Hi. I do research on Guifi.net (part of www.clommunity-project.eu), referenced in the article. Guifi.net has 30k+ nodes, and provides Internet access. We have also built decentralized services specifically for these type of "Community Networks" - including a decentralized search services, and a Video-on-Demand service (www.decentrify.io - to be released this month). Happy to answer questions.

agopaul 11y ago
This is very interesting, but I wonder: how do you guys handle abuses? Especially when it comes to sharing the home connection to the 'outer' Internet with strangers. Do you keep logs? If so, how do you handle the privacy part? I think in part this is a problem that also Tor relay owners have (minus the log keeping obviously).
- jamesblonde 11y ago
  Sharing the home connection outside is encouraged, in fact. There are logs, of course. Individual nodes can be kicked out if needed, as all routing is BGP based.
  - nanijoe 11y ago
    Does each node hold a full BGP routing table? That could be a problem as the number of nodes increases
    - jamesblonde 11y ago
      Nope. There are are domains. What's also interesting is that GPS coords are used extensively for joining domains and accessing services nearby. We have our own UNIX distribution now for cloud services. It's Called 'cloudy'
vonklaus 11y ago
Totally awesome, thanks. Could you break down costs (ideally in dollars) for getting a network up and running. To clarify, how much would infrastructure cost initially for the setup and also to the end user. How much did it cost to connect those 30k nodes, how many people are served and what kind of speed and bandwith are you seeing? Sorry to lob a ton of ?s at you but this is SUPER INTERESTING. Thanks.

mrspeaker 11y ago

Awww, I love this idea... I am sitting in a cafe in Brooklyn reading the article. I checked the available networks and found an "nycmesh" ssid. Went to ev.mesh and got the "this is not the internet"! So cool, but I tried to create an account but got "Error message: can't send email", and I can't log in. Still, I love the idea though - feels like a secret internet club!

vcavallo 11y ago
Hey, do you happen to be in Dumbo?
- mrspeaker 11y ago
  Yup! Spooky! Internet on NYCMesh is much faster than WelcomeBRC ;)
  - vcavallo 11y ago
    you, sir, are on my node. enjoy!
nycmesh 11y ago
Oops, that is my server! I'll fix it today. What café are you in? We don't even know about this access point. Try chat.mesh
CPLX 11y ago
Are you at Brooklyn Roasting Co?

lorenzhs 11y ago

In Germany, there is http://freifunk.net/en/ http://freifunk.net/en/ (the English wepage is a bit sparse) which has the capabilities to do mesh networking where nodes are dense enough. Since this is rarely the case, it's a great way for people to share their internet connections with the world without taking on any liability. All Freifunk data is routed through their VPN, and they are registered as a provider, so they're not liable under Störerhaftung.

nitinics 11y ago
One of the strategy NYCMesh took for where line of sight was not available was to tunnel through the Internet to mesh. This would enable anyone to join the mesh without line of sight requirement, and once more and more people join and the density increases, they can get their dependency on Internet Tunnels away, by connecting/hopping through line-of-sight nodes.
kuschku 11y ago
Warning, only Freifunk Berlin is an ISP, all other Freifunk communities tunnel through a VPN to Switzerland. Source: I hang around in the #ffki channel on HackInt for the Freifunk Kiel community quite often.

colanderman 11y ago

There's a commercial version of this in parts of Boston: http://www.netblazr.com/ http://www.netblazr.com/

cryoshon 11y ago
Yeah, but their coverage is poor. Comcast has Boston completely strangled.
- mjcohen 11y ago
  Boston is strangled in many ways. Miraculously, they evaded the Olympics.
BostonEnginerd 11y ago
There's a small group of us in Boston working on a free meshnet as well. We're hanging out on #bostonmeshnet on Freenode and there is a mailing list here: https://lists.projectmesh.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/boston https://lists.projectmesh.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bosto...

paulsutter 11y ago

You could support Netflix by adding a Bitcoin-based system of transit settlements. This could provide the capital to really scale up, without any central control or administration. I Of course the cooperative part of the network remains free. A payment system just makes expensive infrastructure possible as part of the system, like fiber under the oceans. A decentralized payment system could allow massive scale by allowing investors to finance and make money off network segments, repeaters, etc. Real competition forces them to compete on pricing and quality. One can imagine a smart routing algorithm that takes cost and quality into account. I mention this because I'm a skeptic about many proposed applications for Bitcoin, but infrastructure with no central control is a great use case. Bitcoin needs some solid use cases before it can really take off. Edit: any comments along with the downvotes? I was hoping for a conversation. I know its crazy but I'm speculating about creating an entire new internet.

adrianmacneil 11y ago
100% agree. Of all the potential use cases for Bitcoin, decentralized protocol-level payments (for network bandwidth, torrent seeding etc) are one of the most compelling. I've seen this being done for torrents already, but would love to see someone try it out for negotiating bandwidth for wifi/mesh networks.
nosuchthing 11y ago
Maybe something more along the branch of Namecoin, but optimized for micropayments to pay bandwidth providers daily rates? Thinking long term, setting some type of expiration system after coins are mined, by a set decomposition rate into the protocol to solve both the hording/anti-economy issue inherent to bitcoin's hard limit on coin supply. Coins expiring might potentially help with ledger bloat? Avoiding potential abuse of "juggling" the coins by transferring them between several wallets to avoid the decomposition rate would be the first issue that comes to mind.

adrianmacneil 11y ago

What would it take to set this up in a new city? It would be awesome to have this in SF as well.

unoti 11y ago
This might interest you http://www.broadband-hamnet.org/ http://www.broadband-hamnet.org/ it's a mesh network using modified wifi access points for setting up a very high bandwidth mesh network. Quite a few people in my area (Pleasanton, Livermore) are using it. I'm sure there are people in the SF area. This website would be a good starting point for finding them. Also there are some of the worlds best ham radio clubs down in San Fran and the South Bay the towuld be a great place to start in finding people that want to get serious about mesh networks. Another related field that is fun is microwave community cations, and I'm pretty sure there are some active groups in your area for that.

winstonford 11y ago

There is an interesting symbiosis developing between NYC Mesh and my startup Canopy: the data mesh wants power, the power mesh wants data. Both want the other to be more resilient and less expensive. In the pic at the top of the article, taken on my rooftop, you can see a white, round thing. This is a ubiquiti nanobeam wifi radio. Just below it you can see a solar panel. It belongs to an off-grid solar power unit called Ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra. The nanobeam is now bolted directly onto the solar power unit Ra enabling the node to support the local data mesh during a blackout. On the roof and inside Ra, a beaglebone black runs the http://sunpress.co http://sunpress.co network of websites directly on off-grid solar power. Ra also delivers solar power for lighting and usb charging in the form of the Canopy Cuba table http://canopyrising.com/#cuba http://canopyrising.com/#cuba , a bedside table that stores days worth of power and is found in the http://tremolino.co http://tremolino.co guest rooms 1 floor down. Canopy aims to create a marketplace where neighbors who invest in the products to generate solar power trade with those who invest in capacity to store it. Unlike traditional solar and storage, which is limited to property owners as it requires financing, design, permitting, and installation; Canopy is accessible renters and owners as it is low cost and requires no financing, no design, no permitting, and no install.

oconnore 11y ago
How does the cost and resiliency compare to purchasing energy from the grid? For reference, I buy 100% wind source power from Xcell @ $0.14 / kWh. Reliability is generally very good, but to compare apples to apples it would cost ~$500 to purchase a backup generator [1] for the 1-2 hours of outages we have every year. [1]: a battery system would fulfill a similar role, but I'm not sure of the cost -- and for something that I would essentially never use, it may actually be better for the environment to keep the generator.
- winstonford 11y ago
  Great question @oconnore. 2 answers. 1. The target price for Ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra http://canopyrising.com/#ra is $600-800, just under what you would pay for a 1kw emergency generator. Initial market is apartment renters in flat-roof, multi-floor urban buildings, who can not run generators indoors b/c of fumes, etc. 2. Battery capacity built into the Cuba table http://canopyrising.com/#cuba http://canopyrising.com/#cuba allows power arbitrage, buying power at the lowest price during off-peak hours to charge up, then drawing from batteries during peak pricing on the grid. In NYC, Conedison sells power for 7-19 cents during the day, but from midnight until 8a, it costs just over a penny. Voluntary time of use programs are common across the country, but few products exist to leverage them. http://www.coned.com/customercentral/energyresvoluntary.asp http://www.coned.com/customercentral/energyresvoluntary.asp

cthyon 11y ago

Really cool idea. Does anyone know about the legality of sharing internet through meshes as referenced in the article, "RHI pays its internet subscription to Brooklyn Fiber, and redistributes this coverage for free to a dozen parts of Red Hook." ? Or whether ISPs would be able to shutdown mesh networks for sharing internet subscription like this?

wyldfire 11y ago
How different is this from backbone peering? It's certainly "legal" and RHI would only need worry about whether it's permitted as a part of their service. Presumably it is permitted, but certainly not all providers would allow it. Baked into the cost of the service no doubt.
justizin 11y ago
Brooklyn Fiber is a commercial provider, so buying access from someone like them is basically how an ISP becomes an ISP. If you were sharing your Cable or DSL, you might run into issues with your contract. In both cases you would have to be prepared to handle abuse complaints, or your IP space would likely just get blocked from large parts of the internet, or at least major services. For instance, the administrator of an office network may receive DMCA complaints about employees downloading movies or somesuch. If these continue, at some point your internet provider will terminate your connection. The same would be a concern for anonymous internet sharing.

dinoby 11y ago

We tried something similar in many cities around Ireland in early 2000's when the first 802.11b antennas were coming out - https://web.archive.org/web/20030420231414/http://www.dublinwan.org/dw/FrontPage https://web.archive.org/web/20030420231414/http://www.dublin...