5 ms·

Putting aside everything else on the blog post, because the conference organisers seem inept - As long there are "wanted advances" in workplaces, there will be

by meric 11y ago

Putting aside everything else on the blog post, because the conference organisers seem inept - As long there are "wanted advances" in workplaces, there will be "unwanted advances" also. To eliminate "unwanted advances", you must eliminate "advances" in general. For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. As long as "advances" are still permitted in the workplace, there needs to be social education in the corporate environment so that "brush-offs" aren't interpreted as "try harder".

Retra 11y ago
>For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. You don't know that. It is an unreasonable and unfair assumption, and reflects the expectation of your own immaturity as a gold standard.
- meric 11y ago
  Your comment only serves to distract from the point - No woman is going to post a blog post talking about "wanted advances", even though we know they exist, from friends we know who met in workplaces.
interpol_p 11y ago
I don't think "advances" are bad. This woman experienced continuous harassment after politely declining an "advance." That's where things should have ended, but didn't. The fact that we need to suggest social education to educate professionals in the workplace about when a person is not interested in them is kind of shocking. It should be considered basic communication skills.
- meric 11y ago
  There's no formal education for basic communication skills. We rely on informal methods such as talking to friends and family, but there will always be people who miss out on practicing on one or more aspects of socialising with women. And they will be the harassers. I don't think shaming them and locking them up straight away is the way to go. I have had crushes on various females since primary and secondary school. The first one or two instances you could almost say I too had harassed someone. It wasn't until I had more experience "advancing" I finally got when girls want you to continue and when they don't. Not everyone is lucky they pick this skill up early, even as I wish I got the hang of it earlier than I did.
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    Sure, everyone has had embarrassing social experiences. But we are discussing grown professionals who are speaking at conferences. Not children in school. And this isn't a case of not knowing how to act socially, it's actual aggression and harassing behaviour when he doesn't get what he wants. On a side note, there are formal communication skills courses in education. My university had a course called "Communication Skills for Engineering" or something like that. It was a mandatory short course for anyone in engineering, maths and computer science.
    - meric 11y ago
      The only place where you can 'formally' learn a 'Sorry I'm really busy, maybe some other time? :)' is a straight out rejection, and that you should stop pursuing this woman, is in a PUA school. The other way you can learn it is receiving enough of these rejections to finally figure out what they mean. Not everyone had enough contact with women to learn this by the time you're grown professional. I'd say at least 20% of HN readers wouldn't know it either. You don't learn that in engineering communication courses. The way the man acted is like a child throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly where his skill level in managing his emotions is when dealing with women!
      - interpol_p 11y ago
        Right, but we expect professional engineers to learn difficult things. Having an expectation of them to also learn how to behave like adults seems like a reasonable one. Doesn't matter that it's "hard because they were scared of girls."
        meric 11y ago
        It's also reasonable to expect them to pass their engineering subjects, yet at the same time, we know in universities, the pass rate of some subjects can be as low as 60%, and usually around 80-90%. There will always be people who didn't make it through with all the knowledge pieces in the head intact and we need a system of making sure no one is left out. No one wants to lock up the 20% of engineers who aren't good with girls and have exhibited behaviour that constitutes harassment or being "creepy".

by meric 11y ago

Retra 11y ago

>For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. You don't know that. It is an unreasonable and unfair assumption, and reflects the expectation of your own immaturity as a gold standard.

meric 11y ago
Your comment only serves to distract from the point - No woman is going to post a blog post talking about "wanted advances", even though we know they exist, from friends we know who met in workplaces.

interpol_p 11y ago

I don't think "advances" are bad. This woman experienced continuous harassment after politely declining an "advance." That's where things should have ended, but didn't. The fact that we need to suggest social education to educate professionals in the workplace about when a person is not interested in them is kind of shocking. It should be considered basic communication skills.

meric 11y ago
There's no formal education for basic communication skills. We rely on informal methods such as talking to friends and family, but there will always be people who miss out on practicing on one or more aspects of socialising with women. And they will be the harassers. I don't think shaming them and locking them up straight away is the way to go. I have had crushes on various females since primary and secondary school. The first one or two instances you could almost say I too had harassed someone. It wasn't until I had more experience "advancing" I finally got when girls want you to continue and when they don't. Not everyone is lucky they pick this skill up early, even as I wish I got the hang of it earlier than I did.
- interpol_p 11y ago
  Sure, everyone has had embarrassing social experiences. But we are discussing grown professionals who are speaking at conferences. Not children in school. And this isn't a case of not knowing how to act socially, it's actual aggression and harassing behaviour when he doesn't get what he wants. On a side note, there are formal communication skills courses in education. My university had a course called "Communication Skills for Engineering" or something like that. It was a mandatory short course for anyone in engineering, maths and computer science.
  - meric 11y ago
    The only place where you can 'formally' learn a 'Sorry I'm really busy, maybe some other time? :)' is a straight out rejection, and that you should stop pursuing this woman, is in a PUA school. The other way you can learn it is receiving enough of these rejections to finally figure out what they mean. Not everyone had enough contact with women to learn this by the time you're grown professional. I'd say at least 20% of HN readers wouldn't know it either. You don't learn that in engineering communication courses. The way the man acted is like a child throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly where his skill level in managing his emotions is when dealing with women!
    - interpol_p 11y ago
      Right, but we expect professional engineers to learn difficult things. Having an expectation of them to also learn how to behave like adults seems like a reasonable one. Doesn't matter that it's "hard because they were scared of girls."
      - meric 11y ago
        It's also reasonable to expect them to pass their engineering subjects, yet at the same time, we know in universities, the pass rate of some subjects can be as low as 60%, and usually around 80-90%. There will always be people who didn't make it through with all the knowledge pieces in the head intact and we need a system of making sure no one is left out. No one wants to lock up the 20% of engineers who aren't good with girls and have exhibited behaviour that constitutes harassment or being "creepy".