8 ms·

She turned him down, and you're saying she didn't turn him down firmly enough, and did so to string him along? Why does that sound like a variation on "she was

by Frondo 11y ago

She turned him down, and you're saying she didn't turn him down firmly enough, and did so to string him along? Why does that sound like a variation on "she was asking for it, she didn't fight back hard enough" or any other kind of victim-blaming?

meric 11y ago
Putting aside everything else on the blog post, because the conference organisers seem inept - As long there are "wanted advances" in workplaces, there will be "unwanted advances" also. To eliminate "unwanted advances", you must eliminate "advances" in general. For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. As long as "advances" are still permitted in the workplace, there needs to be social education in the corporate environment so that "brush-offs" aren't interpreted as "try harder".
- Retra 11y ago
  >For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. You don't know that. It is an unreasonable and unfair assumption, and reflects the expectation of your own immaturity as a gold standard.
  - meric 11y ago
    Your comment only serves to distract from the point - No woman is going to post a blog post talking about "wanted advances", even though we know they exist, from friends we know who met in workplaces.
- interpol_p 11y ago
  I don't think "advances" are bad. This woman experienced continuous harassment after politely declining an "advance." That's where things should have ended, but didn't. The fact that we need to suggest social education to educate professionals in the workplace about when a person is not interested in them is kind of shocking. It should be considered basic communication skills.
  - meric 11y ago
    There's no formal education for basic communication skills. We rely on informal methods such as talking to friends and family, but there will always be people who miss out on practicing on one or more aspects of socialising with women. And they will be the harassers. I don't think shaming them and locking them up straight away is the way to go. I have had crushes on various females since primary and secondary school. The first one or two instances you could almost say I too had harassed someone. It wasn't until I had more experience "advancing" I finally got when girls want you to continue and when they don't. Not everyone is lucky they pick this skill up early, even as I wish I got the hang of it earlier than I did.
    - interpol_p 11y ago
      Sure, everyone has had embarrassing social experiences. But we are discussing grown professionals who are speaking at conferences. Not children in school. And this isn't a case of not knowing how to act socially, it's actual aggression and harassing behaviour when he doesn't get what he wants. On a side note, there are formal communication skills courses in education. My university had a course called "Communication Skills for Engineering" or something like that. It was a mandatory short course for anyone in engineering, maths and computer science.
      - meric 11y ago
        The only place where you can 'formally' learn a 'Sorry I'm really busy, maybe some other time? :)' is a straight out rejection, and that you should stop pursuing this woman, is in a PUA school. The other way you can learn it is receiving enough of these rejections to finally figure out what they mean. Not everyone had enough contact with women to learn this by the time you're grown professional. I'd say at least 20% of HN readers wouldn't know it either. You don't learn that in engineering communication courses. The way the man acted is like a child throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly where his skill level in managing his emotions is when dealing with women!
        interpol_p 11y ago
coldtea 11y ago
If people stopped pursuing people who "turned them down" at first, then half of the world's children would be unborn, and half of the marriages/relationships would have never happened. Literally. Ask how many people's husbands or wives turned each other down a first, and din't have to ask a few times, and even do some stupid things (down to a serenade on a case I know, but there are far more involved cases), to earn each other's love. Or read 100 or 1000 biographies and note down how often this happens. It might sound difficult for litigation and PC-heavy us protestants to hear, where everyone is a victim, everything should be regulated and people should only approach each other with laywers or gloves and full body armors, but it's the way of the world. Except if you think that every relationship starts as "love at first sight". Now, if she had turned him down "firmly" that's another thing. But a simple turndown that might sound like it might be overcome might not be enough.
- tomlock 11y ago
  >>He started to get angry with me and reply with things like “fuck you” and sometimes up to 8 texts in a row when I wouldn’t reply or would decline. Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you? The guy literally texted abuse at a person because they didn't respond to his advances. The fact that this person was scared or didn't want to cut professional ties is evidence that something is wrong here with the situation, and not the person themselves. How do we live in a society where people fear saying no to a harasser, and people still seem to come in to bat for those harassers?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you? No, such strong language + repeatedly declining to answer I think carries the message perfectly accurately. He should have got it. P.S. Although, I can see how "fuck you" can be seen as a double-message by the guy (only joking).
    - interpol_p 11y ago
      It was the guy who texted "fuck you" when she didn't reply to his horrible comments.

by Frondo 11y ago

meric 11y ago

Putting aside everything else on the blog post, because the conference organisers seem inept - As long there are "wanted advances" in workplaces, there will be "unwanted advances" also. To eliminate "unwanted advances", you must eliminate "advances" in general. For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. As long as "advances" are still permitted in the workplace, there needs to be social education in the corporate environment so that "brush-offs" aren't interpreted as "try harder".

Retra 11y ago
>For example: if she found him hot, we wouldn't be reading this post. You don't know that. It is an unreasonable and unfair assumption, and reflects the expectation of your own immaturity as a gold standard.
- meric 11y ago
  Your comment only serves to distract from the point - No woman is going to post a blog post talking about "wanted advances", even though we know they exist, from friends we know who met in workplaces.
interpol_p 11y ago
I don't think "advances" are bad. This woman experienced continuous harassment after politely declining an "advance." That's where things should have ended, but didn't. The fact that we need to suggest social education to educate professionals in the workplace about when a person is not interested in them is kind of shocking. It should be considered basic communication skills.
- meric 11y ago
  There's no formal education for basic communication skills. We rely on informal methods such as talking to friends and family, but there will always be people who miss out on practicing on one or more aspects of socialising with women. And they will be the harassers. I don't think shaming them and locking them up straight away is the way to go. I have had crushes on various females since primary and secondary school. The first one or two instances you could almost say I too had harassed someone. It wasn't until I had more experience "advancing" I finally got when girls want you to continue and when they don't. Not everyone is lucky they pick this skill up early, even as I wish I got the hang of it earlier than I did.
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    Sure, everyone has had embarrassing social experiences. But we are discussing grown professionals who are speaking at conferences. Not children in school. And this isn't a case of not knowing how to act socially, it's actual aggression and harassing behaviour when he doesn't get what he wants. On a side note, there are formal communication skills courses in education. My university had a course called "Communication Skills for Engineering" or something like that. It was a mandatory short course for anyone in engineering, maths and computer science.
    - meric 11y ago
      The only place where you can 'formally' learn a 'Sorry I'm really busy, maybe some other time? :)' is a straight out rejection, and that you should stop pursuing this woman, is in a PUA school. The other way you can learn it is receiving enough of these rejections to finally figure out what they mean. Not everyone had enough contact with women to learn this by the time you're grown professional. I'd say at least 20% of HN readers wouldn't know it either. You don't learn that in engineering communication courses. The way the man acted is like a child throwing a temper tantrum, because that is exactly where his skill level in managing his emotions is when dealing with women!
      - interpol_p 11y ago

coldtea 11y ago

If people stopped pursuing people who "turned them down" at first, then half of the world's children would be unborn, and half of the marriages/relationships would have never happened. Literally. Ask how many people's husbands or wives turned each other down a first, and din't have to ask a few times, and even do some stupid things (down to a serenade on a case I know, but there are far more involved cases), to earn each other's love. Or read 100 or 1000 biographies and note down how often this happens. It might sound difficult for litigation and PC-heavy us protestants to hear, where everyone is a victim, everything should be regulated and people should only approach each other with laywers or gloves and full body armors, but it's the way of the world. Except if you think that every relationship starts as "love at first sight". Now, if she had turned him down "firmly" that's another thing. But a simple turndown that might sound like it might be overcome might not be enough.

tomlock 11y ago
>>He started to get angry with me and reply with things like “fuck you” and sometimes up to 8 texts in a row when I wouldn’t reply or would decline. Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you? The guy literally texted abuse at a person because they didn't respond to his advances. The fact that this person was scared or didn't want to cut professional ties is evidence that something is wrong here with the situation, and not the person themselves. How do we live in a society where people fear saying no to a harasser, and people still seem to come in to bat for those harassers?
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Given the above section, does this situation sound "PC-heavy" to you? No, such strong language + repeatedly declining to answer I think carries the message perfectly accurately. He should have got it. P.S. Although, I can see how "fuck you" can be seen as a double-message by the guy (only joking).
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    It was the guy who texted "fuck you" when she didn't reply to his horrible comments.