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Quality and accountability is what happens when we pay. We've traded quality and accountability for "free" garbage floating in a sea of ads. The NYTimes is st

Quality and accountability is what happens when we pay. We've traded quality and accountability for "free" garbage floating in a sea of ads. The NYTimes is still too dependent on advertising. That they consider "native advertising" acceptable shows compromised journalistic principles. "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks." – Jeff Hammerbacher, fmr. Manager of Facebook Data Team, founder of Cloudera We call ourselves hackers and innovators. Yet instead of pouring our energies into figuring alternative business models and micropayment solutions, we spend our energies on more ways to capture users in viral schemes and then collect their data for sale to advertisers. As I wrote the other day: Where are our backbones to stand up against selling out the internet so that we can get rich quick? Because that is what the advertising business model is: a get rich quick scheme. Undercut the straight up competitors that charge for their product by fooling consumers into thinking you're offering what the other guy is offering, but for free. Come on, who could turn down that? The saddest thing about Hacker News is that we all get behind radical things like FOSS (Bill Gates called it un-American) and Snowden, and fight SOPA and NSA violations of privacy, but because too many of our salaries depend on advertising revenue, our cognitive dissonance blinders go up lightning fast.

ska 11y ago
Quality and accountability is what happens when we pay. This may plausibly be necessary, but it certainly isn't sufficient.
icebraining 11y ago
I'd say you overestimate the number of people working on ad-supported software. Many, if not most of us are working on for-pay software and services. The reason I'm ambivalent about ads is not because it funds my paycheck (it doesn't, we charge for our services), but because for all their evils, ads work as a kind of enforced redistribution mechanism, and since geographic adjustments of prices work poorly on the web, I fear that any kind of payment system will inevitably lead to prices being set at the US middle class income level, shutting out everyone with a lower income level. I know can afford to pay for stuff, and I'm happy to do it, but that's only been true since I started working, and only because I'm lucky enough to have a decent job. I suppose "we'll figure it out" is one answer, but I'm afraid I can't put my heart behind a proposal that would have left my teenager self closed off from most of the web.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  Imagine a world, pre-internet, where almost all books are handed out free, but with their pages loaded with ads, and their stories embedded with "native" ads and product placements. Imagine that book "stores" get a cut of the ad revenue and so are incented to stock and push whatever book titles "clicked" the most and contained the most ads? Authors in this world would say they have no choice, because readers will always choose the free book over the $10 or even $5 book. The bookstores only stock the free books for the same reason. In that world you would make exactly the same argument that you just made to me. I'm glad you work on non ad-supported software. But look at it from a consumption, share of revenue and availability perspective: ad supported software is eating the web.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    And in that world, I would have been able to read a lot of books that I wish I could have when I was growing up, when I only got 3-4 books per year, plus access to a poorly stocked library. Would I have traded? Yes, I probably would have. --- I also don't agree that one must oppose all advertising or none; we can oppose native ads and personal tracking without being necessarily opposed to well demarcated side ads.
dredmorbius 11y ago
Micropayment solutions don't work, won't work, and will never work. http://szabo.best.vwh.net/micropayments.html http://szabo.best.vwh.net/micropayments.html
- eevilspock 11y ago
  That's been said of a lot of things. We probably wouldnt even have the internet if people always believed pronouncements that seem to be irrefutable, but in truth rest on narrow assumptions or narrow thinking. Think out of the box.
  - dredmorbius 11y ago
    Nick's logic (which I'd arrived at independently, though years later) is solid. He's known for some fairly impressive ideas, some of which I disagree with. Publishing, traditionally, has worked through integrated purchasing rather than dis-integrating purchasing. Magazines, newspapers, books, subscriptions, broadcast advertising (bundled payments through advertisers rather than subscribers). Music syndication. For numerous reasons. Individually assessing the purchase validity of ever smaller quantities of content simply doesn't pan out. Paying into a kitty and apportioning based on general consumption patterns, rather more so. Micropayments are the media payment plan of the future, and always will be.
    - eevilspock 11y ago
      1. Nick wrote this in 1999 and he's been proven wrong. For example when Apple proposed selling music tracks for 99¢ and he probably would have used this very argument and pooh-poohed them along with everyone else. 2. His arguments are one of an anal accountant. Do you know what fraction of the population even reviews their monthly credit card statement, their long distance phone charges, whether or not their mobile data plan minutes are being counted accurately, or whether their iTunes charges matches the number of songs they download exactly? A very small fraction. Do we need to? No, not all of us. We can trust that if a vendor violates trust and commits fraud, someone will catch it and they will suffer a class-action lawsuit, as does actually happen. 3. "Paying into a kitty and apportioning based on general consumption patterns" can work great if the amount I pay per month is fixed, and that fixed payment is apportioned among the things I consumed in a way that rewards quality. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8008960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8008960. This is just a simple idea by me, an amateur. Back to "impossibles": - If before Wikipedia existed, someone proposed to create an online encyclopedia that anyone in the world could anonymously edit, that it be funded by donations and that it become the encyclopedia that most people refer to, nearly 100% of us would have rolled on the floor and laughed out loud. - If before it existed someone described a magical currency with the properties of what we now call Bitcoin, most would have said, "yeah right". - If before asymmetric public-private key encryption was invented, someone said we needed a way to communicate where one side could decrypt something sent by the other but not be able to do the reverse and thereby pose as the other, most would have said, "good luck." Please, please stop speaking in absolutes. It comes off as rather arrogant and foolish rhetoric.
sysk 11y ago
> The saddest thing about Hacker News is that we all get behind radical things like FOSS (Bill Gates called it un-American) and Snowden, and fight SOPA and NSA violations of privacy, but because too many of our salaries depend on advertising revenue, our cognitive dissonance blinders go up lightning fast. What? I don't think I've ever read a positive comment about ads on HN. Also, I'm apparently in the only one on HN who would rather see ads than pay for stuff.
- eevilspock 11y ago
  With all due respect I don't think you have been paying attention as much as I. Anti-ad sentiment on HN as well as elsewhere has only been on the rise in the past few months. But all you have to do is go back in my comment history a ways and you can see all the flack I get, though you won't see all the down-votes I got (a lot!). Bashing ads is just starting to get hip, just as bashing Flash only got hip relatively recently, after an earlier period where Apple got bashed by many simply for being ahead of the mainstream.
  - dasil003 11y ago
    The HN type of audience has been bashing Flash pretty aggressively for at least 15 years, certainly it was a common refrain that could be relied on for easy upvotes back in Slashdot's heyday.
abandonliberty 11y ago
Looking at this thread, it looks like we run into problems because we jump to solutions quickly, then thoroughly waste our time debating them. Perhaps we'll have greater success if we can first agree on common ground? There's a fundamental force at play here that extends far beyond the internet. I'm not entirely sure what it is. Attention and mind share can be bought. This causes some weird outcomes in the Internet and politics. It has to do with how we obtain/exchange value in our society - speech, information, material goods, attention, justice, etc. Perhaps how we make people produce value: labour, creation, votes. Could we get closer to a solution if we spent more time understanding the root cause?

ska 11y ago

Quality and accountability is what happens when we pay. This may plausibly be necessary, but it certainly isn't sufficient.

icebraining 11y ago

I'd say you overestimate the number of people working on ad-supported software. Many, if not most of us are working on for-pay software and services. The reason I'm ambivalent about ads is not because it funds my paycheck (it doesn't, we charge for our services), but because for all their evils, ads work as a kind of enforced redistribution mechanism, and since geographic adjustments of prices work poorly on the web, I fear that any kind of payment system will inevitably lead to prices being set at the US middle class income level, shutting out everyone with a lower income level. I know can afford to pay for stuff, and I'm happy to do it, but that's only been true since I started working, and only because I'm lucky enough to have a decent job. I suppose "we'll figure it out" is one answer, but I'm afraid I can't put my heart behind a proposal that would have left my teenager self closed off from most of the web.

eevilspock 11y ago
Imagine a world, pre-internet, where almost all books are handed out free, but with their pages loaded with ads, and their stories embedded with "native" ads and product placements. Imagine that book "stores" get a cut of the ad revenue and so are incented to stock and push whatever book titles "clicked" the most and contained the most ads? Authors in this world would say they have no choice, because readers will always choose the free book over the $10 or even $5 book. The bookstores only stock the free books for the same reason. In that world you would make exactly the same argument that you just made to me. I'm glad you work on non ad-supported software. But look at it from a consumption, share of revenue and availability perspective: ad supported software is eating the web.
- icebraining 11y ago
  And in that world, I would have been able to read a lot of books that I wish I could have when I was growing up, when I only got 3-4 books per year, plus access to a poorly stocked library. Would I have traded? Yes, I probably would have. --- I also don't agree that one must oppose all advertising or none; we can oppose native ads and personal tracking without being necessarily opposed to well demarcated side ads.

dredmorbius 11y ago

Micropayment solutions don't work, won't work, and will never work. http://szabo.best.vwh.net/micropayments.html http://szabo.best.vwh.net/micropayments.html

eevilspock 11y ago
That's been said of a lot of things. We probably wouldnt even have the internet if people always believed pronouncements that seem to be irrefutable, but in truth rest on narrow assumptions or narrow thinking. Think out of the box.
- dredmorbius 11y ago
  Nick's logic (which I'd arrived at independently, though years later) is solid. He's known for some fairly impressive ideas, some of which I disagree with. Publishing, traditionally, has worked through integrated purchasing rather than dis-integrating purchasing. Magazines, newspapers, books, subscriptions, broadcast advertising (bundled payments through advertisers rather than subscribers). Music syndication. For numerous reasons. Individually assessing the purchase validity of ever smaller quantities of content simply doesn't pan out. Paying into a kitty and apportioning based on general consumption patterns, rather more so. Micropayments are the media payment plan of the future, and always will be.
  - eevilspock 11y ago
    1. Nick wrote this in 1999 and he's been proven wrong. For example when Apple proposed selling music tracks for 99¢ and he probably would have used this very argument and pooh-poohed them along with everyone else. 2. His arguments are one of an anal accountant. Do you know what fraction of the population even reviews their monthly credit card statement, their long distance phone charges, whether or not their mobile data plan minutes are being counted accurately, or whether their iTunes charges matches the number of songs they download exactly? A very small fraction. Do we need to? No, not all of us. We can trust that if a vendor violates trust and commits fraud, someone will catch it and they will suffer a class-action lawsuit, as does actually happen. 3. "Paying into a kitty and apportioning based on general consumption patterns" can work great if the amount I pay per month is fixed, and that fixed payment is apportioned among the things I consumed in a way that rewards quality. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8008960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8008960. This is just a simple idea by me, an amateur. Back to "impossibles": - If before Wikipedia existed, someone proposed to create an online encyclopedia that anyone in the world could anonymously edit, that it be funded by donations and that it become the encyclopedia that most people refer to, nearly 100% of us would have rolled on the floor and laughed out loud. - If before it existed someone described a magical currency with the properties of what we now call Bitcoin, most would have said, "yeah right". - If before asymmetric public-private key encryption was invented, someone said we needed a way to communicate where one side could decrypt something sent by the other but not be able to do the reverse and thereby pose as the other, most would have said, "good luck." Please, please stop speaking in absolutes. It comes off as rather arrogant and foolish rhetoric.

sysk 11y ago

> The saddest thing about Hacker News is that we all get behind radical things like FOSS (Bill Gates called it un-American) and Snowden, and fight SOPA and NSA violations of privacy, but because too many of our salaries depend on advertising revenue, our cognitive dissonance blinders go up lightning fast. What? I don't think I've ever read a positive comment about ads on HN. Also, I'm apparently in the only one on HN who would rather see ads than pay for stuff.

eevilspock 11y ago
With all due respect I don't think you have been paying attention as much as I. Anti-ad sentiment on HN as well as elsewhere has only been on the rise in the past few months. But all you have to do is go back in my comment history a ways and you can see all the flack I get, though you won't see all the down-votes I got (a lot!). Bashing ads is just starting to get hip, just as bashing Flash only got hip relatively recently, after an earlier period where Apple got bashed by many simply for being ahead of the mainstream.
- dasil003 11y ago
  The HN type of audience has been bashing Flash pretty aggressively for at least 15 years, certainly it was a common refrain that could be relied on for easy upvotes back in Slashdot's heyday.

abandonliberty 11y ago

Looking at this thread, it looks like we run into problems because we jump to solutions quickly, then thoroughly waste our time debating them. Perhaps we'll have greater success if we can first agree on common ground? There's a fundamental force at play here that extends far beyond the internet. I'm not entirely sure what it is. Attention and mind share can be bought. This causes some weird outcomes in the Internet and politics. It has to do with how we obtain/exchange value in our society - speech, information, material goods, attention, justice, etc. Perhaps how we make people produce value: labour, creation, votes. Could we get closer to a solution if we spent more time understanding the root cause?