4 ms·

I myself learned it from Rich in the very talk I linked to a few years ago and I'm the first to admit I didn't make that distinction beforehand. I've met more d

I myself learned it from Rich in the very talk I linked to a few years ago and I'm the first to admit I didn't make that distinction beforehand. I've met more developers unaware of the distinction than otherwise, which is why I'm curious as to why you think it has become a meme? Also note that english isn't my first language (I'm french Canadian) and even here in french the distinction is seldom made.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
vezzy-fnord 11y ago
In colloquial English, no. The distinction between two main types of simplicity, those of parsimony and elegance, has been a long-standing philosophical topic [1]. In engineering, the so-called KISS principle (first coined as such in the early 20th century) has always had the implication of minimalism and implementation simplicity, in contrast to mere ease of use. Fred Brooks wrote a famous paper in 1986 [2] perfectly describing the differences between accidental and essential complexity, and of the semantics of complexity management in software projects. Hickey has said absolutely nothing spectacular, but his name comes up every time from the typing fingers of the historically illiterate whenever simplicity and ease of use are brought up. [1] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/ [2] http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBullet.html http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBulle...
- jeremiep 11y ago
  Thanks for the precision, definitely puts it all into perspective! I knew about KISS, but almost every time I hear someone mention it they think about ease not simplicity. I will also definitely check out Brooks' paper. While I understand your position, I believe a lot of this has been lost to the new generations of engineers and what Rich did is remind them of it.
- stdbrouw 11y ago
  I dunno, people use the same kind of argument to say that nobody's really done anything new in philosophy since Kant or even Aristotle. The KISS principle is not the same as a distinction between simplicity and ease. Accidental vs. essential complexity is orthogonal to simplicity vs. ease. And parsimony and elegance are both about simplicity rather than ease. Some people can be a little bit too historically literate for their own good.
- dasil003 11y ago
  "historically illiterate" are pretty strong words. Actually everyone is historically illiterate by these standards because the ideas that any one person is familiar with is a vanishingly small percentage of all the ideas the human race has ever had. Furthermore, the origins of ideas are impossible to trace with any great precision. Is the most famous person the person with the best ideas? Was the person with access to the printing press the person with the best ideas? Frankly it strikes me as a form of intellectual hipsterism to be bothered so much by this. Rich Hickey gained fame for this because he stated an idea very clearly and compellingly, this is non-trivial and should not be so flippantly dismissed as just recyling old ideas—all your ideas are recycled too. https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/
  - jdc 11y ago
    Alan Kay has similarly criticized the computer software industry and its "pop culture." https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523
  - kinleyd 11y ago
    "Rich Hickey gained fame for this because he stated an idea very clearly and compellingly, this is non-trivial and should not be so flippantly dismissed as just recyling old ideas." +100 for this.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

vezzy-fnord 11y ago

In colloquial English, no. The distinction between two main types of simplicity, those of parsimony and elegance, has been a long-standing philosophical topic [1]. In engineering, the so-called KISS principle (first coined as such in the early 20th century) has always had the implication of minimalism and implementation simplicity, in contrast to mere ease of use. Fred Brooks wrote a famous paper in 1986 [2] perfectly describing the differences between accidental and essential complexity, and of the semantics of complexity management in software projects. Hickey has said absolutely nothing spectacular, but his name comes up every time from the typing fingers of the historically illiterate whenever simplicity and ease of use are brought up. [1] http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/ http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/simplicity/ [2] http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBullet.html http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~cah/G51ISS/Documents/NoSilverBulle...

jeremiep 11y ago
Thanks for the precision, definitely puts it all into perspective! I knew about KISS, but almost every time I hear someone mention it they think about ease not simplicity. I will also definitely check out Brooks' paper. While I understand your position, I believe a lot of this has been lost to the new generations of engineers and what Rich did is remind them of it.
stdbrouw 11y ago
I dunno, people use the same kind of argument to say that nobody's really done anything new in philosophy since Kant or even Aristotle. The KISS principle is not the same as a distinction between simplicity and ease. Accidental vs. essential complexity is orthogonal to simplicity vs. ease. And parsimony and elegance are both about simplicity rather than ease. Some people can be a little bit too historically literate for their own good.
dasil003 11y ago
"historically illiterate" are pretty strong words. Actually everyone is historically illiterate by these standards because the ideas that any one person is familiar with is a vanishingly small percentage of all the ideas the human race has ever had. Furthermore, the origins of ideas are impossible to trace with any great precision. Is the most famous person the person with the best ideas? Was the person with access to the printing press the person with the best ideas? Frankly it strikes me as a form of intellectual hipsterism to be bothered so much by this. Rich Hickey gained fame for this because he stated an idea very clearly and compellingly, this is non-trivial and should not be so flippantly dismissed as just recyling old ideas—all your ideas are recycled too. https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/
- jdc 11y ago
  Alan Kay has similarly criticized the computer software industry and its "pop culture." https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1039523
- kinleyd 11y ago
  "Rich Hickey gained fame for this because he stated an idea very clearly and compellingly, this is non-trivial and should not be so flippantly dismissed as just recyling old ideas." +100 for this.