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Suppose we have a democracy, or perhaps a freedom preserving autocracy of some sort (e.g. Singapore). How does it benefit anyone to turn a good street sweeper i

Suppose we have a democracy, or perhaps a freedom preserving autocracy of some sort (e.g. Singapore). How does it benefit anyone to turn a good street sweeper into a great one who vaguely half remembers Shakespeare? Could you lay out the mechanics in concrete terms? (I.e., no vague platitudes like "a knowledge citizenry is necessary in a democracy", but instead concrete steps like "vague memory of hating shakespeare => recognizing that bushbama is lying with higher probability => voting better". Critical thinking rather than slogans.)

Retra 11y ago
If you don't see the relevance in understanding Shakespeare for making decisions in your life, then you weren't properly taught Shakespeare.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  tl;dr; no argument but have a platitude.
  - Practicality 11y ago
    His one sentence was too long to read?
- SamReidHughes 11y ago
  What's the most recent decision in your life for which understanding Shakespeare was relevant? What does it mean to "understand" Shakespeare, by the way? (If I read or watch the plays, is that sufficient? Or is there more to it than that?)
  - Retra 11y ago
    If you understand it (that is, study its writer's themes, methodologies, culture, etc..) you generalize the information and integrate it with your decision-making abilities. Your question is a bit like asking "When's the last time eating ham was relevant to a decision I've made." You can't trace the source of relevance through those kinds of generalizations. You can only know your own personal history: that you've previously integrated the information. It's the same way you can't look at someone and say "your decisions don't directly involve ham. Maybe you shouldn't eat ham anymore." Shakespeare isn't strictly necessary for this, but there is value to be gained from studying literature, and Shakespeare is just the most accessible and popular academic literature. Addendum: For what it's worth, I use my experiences studying shakespeare quite frequently, particularly when analyzing things like tragedy, taboo, or social conflict like drugs and politics. If there were some better way to deliver that experience, I would support it as well.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Lets approach this via another tack, since you seem to want to drop more platitudes. Suppose you have two humans - one who integrated shakespeare, one who didn't. (Or make it two samples of humans to reduce statistical noise, if you prefer.) Beyond quizzing them on lines from plays, what measurement can you make to determine which human/group of humans "integrated" and "generalized" shakespeare and which didn't? If no such measurement exists, I'd assert that rather than shakespeare, we need invisible dragons to breath the fire of knowledge. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
      - Retra 11y ago
        I don't think you know what a platitude is. > what measurement can you make to determine which human/group of humans "integrated" and "generalized" shakespeare and which didn't? What measurement can you make to determine if someone is intelligent or not? You solve that, and I'll get back to you.
        yummyfajitas 11y ago
        What measurement can you make to determine if someone is intelligent or not? Any of a variety of IQ tests, to measure directly. But that might be cheating, analogous to asking directly about Hamlet. So instead, ask them to perform any of the variety of real world tasks that are highly correlated with IQ (e.g., "here is a device you've never seen before, figure it out"). Measure their income - the theory of IQ claims income will be higher in the more intelligent group. Measure their criminality, risky sexual behavior or drug use; these will also be lower in the high IQ group. I wouldn't claim intelligence existed if I couldn't make claims of this sort. Your turn.
    - SamReidHughes 11y ago
      So, being unable to trace it, you don't really know whether studying Shakespeare, or other literature, affects your decision-making at all -- and if it does, how much. I agree that much of knowledge you pick up is something you can't trace. But do you get any from studying literature? On the other hand, I can think of plenty of ways reading books (and watching movies, etc) has changed my decision-making abilities. I could name examples. Likewise with playing sports, playing musical instruments, getting really sunburnt, interacting with old people, etc -- some of which I've spent less time doing. Studying literature, on the other hand, and finding out, oh, its themes are X, Y, and Z (because duhhh) making up some completely nonsensical psychoanalysis has not, in any identifiable way. There are other things you could do with your time. Is it better to study Shakespeare, or to watch reality TV?

Retra 11y ago

If you don't see the relevance in understanding Shakespeare for making decisions in your life, then you weren't properly taught Shakespeare.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
tl;dr; no argument but have a platitude.
- Practicality 11y ago
  His one sentence was too long to read?
SamReidHughes 11y ago
What's the most recent decision in your life for which understanding Shakespeare was relevant? What does it mean to "understand" Shakespeare, by the way? (If I read or watch the plays, is that sufficient? Or is there more to it than that?)
- Retra 11y ago
  If you understand it (that is, study its writer's themes, methodologies, culture, etc..) you generalize the information and integrate it with your decision-making abilities. Your question is a bit like asking "When's the last time eating ham was relevant to a decision I've made." You can't trace the source of relevance through those kinds of generalizations. You can only know your own personal history: that you've previously integrated the information. It's the same way you can't look at someone and say "your decisions don't directly involve ham. Maybe you shouldn't eat ham anymore." Shakespeare isn't strictly necessary for this, but there is value to be gained from studying literature, and Shakespeare is just the most accessible and popular academic literature. Addendum: For what it's worth, I use my experiences studying shakespeare quite frequently, particularly when analyzing things like tragedy, taboo, or social conflict like drugs and politics. If there were some better way to deliver that experience, I would support it as well.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Lets approach this via another tack, since you seem to want to drop more platitudes. Suppose you have two humans - one who integrated shakespeare, one who didn't. (Or make it two samples of humans to reduce statistical noise, if you prefer.) Beyond quizzing them on lines from plays, what measurement can you make to determine which human/group of humans "integrated" and "generalized" shakespeare and which didn't? If no such measurement exists, I'd assert that rather than shakespeare, we need invisible dragons to breath the fire of knowledge. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
    - Retra 11y ago
      I don't think you know what a platitude is. > what measurement can you make to determine which human/group of humans "integrated" and "generalized" shakespeare and which didn't? What measurement can you make to determine if someone is intelligent or not? You solve that, and I'll get back to you.
      - yummyfajitas 11y ago
        What measurement can you make to determine if someone is intelligent or not? Any of a variety of IQ tests, to measure directly. But that might be cheating, analogous to asking directly about Hamlet. So instead, ask them to perform any of the variety of real world tasks that are highly correlated with IQ (e.g., "here is a device you've never seen before, figure it out"). Measure their income - the theory of IQ claims income will be higher in the more intelligent group. Measure their criminality, risky sexual behavior or drug use; these will also be lower in the high IQ group. I wouldn't claim intelligence existed if I couldn't make claims of this sort. Your turn.
  - SamReidHughes 11y ago
    So, being unable to trace it, you don't really know whether studying Shakespeare, or other literature, affects your decision-making at all -- and if it does, how much. I agree that much of knowledge you pick up is something you can't trace. But do you get any from studying literature? On the other hand, I can think of plenty of ways reading books (and watching movies, etc) has changed my decision-making abilities. I could name examples. Likewise with playing sports, playing musical instruments, getting really sunburnt, interacting with old people, etc -- some of which I've spent less time doing. Studying literature, on the other hand, and finding out, oh, its themes are X, Y, and Z (because duhhh) making up some completely nonsensical psychoanalysis has not, in any identifiable way. There are other things you could do with your time. Is it better to study Shakespeare, or to watch reality TV?