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Open source has a solution for this, fork it. Don't like the bikini guys' attitude? Git clone and now you're rid of them. People are centralizing the philosoph

Open source has a solution for this, fork it. Don't like the bikini guys' attitude? Git clone and now you're rid of them. People are centralizing the philosophy behind a project more than is necessary.

JoshTriplett 11y ago
As usual for a FOSS project, forking is a last resort. You start out trying to convince the project you're working on, with its existing community, just as you would for some other kind of change. Calling attention to the problem can also help. If all else fails, sure, forking the project may potentially be an option to solve the problem (in which case you'd still need to convince (a subset of) the community around that project to join the fork). But that's not always an available option, depending on the project and the circumstances that lead you to working on it. As for communities, no, "fork it" is not a universal solution to problems within communities, conferences, professional events, and other environments. But even in cases where the approach finally ends up being to go start new, more welcoming environments, that's still a case for codes of conduct and similar; even if you're successful in moving a community elsewhere, if the same set (or a new set) of awful people show up with their same behavior, you need something to show what standards a community expects. And much like the Zen of Python, "explicit is better than implicit". I'm also noticing a conspicuous lack of any response to the actual behaviors I was referring to; you're dismissing that as behavior that someone ought to have to tolerate or go start their own project. This problem ought to be as universally recognized in projects as buffer overflows are. And rather than playing whack-a-mole, it makes sense to try to get better solutions in place. For instance, getting support from major hosting sites, or otherwise creating larger meta-communities of people who agree that this is a bad idea, to avoid having a different set of standards (or lack of standards) in every project. And just as it's a bad idea to write your own software license rather than using a standard one, it's a bad idea to write your own code of conduct rather than using a standard one.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  > I'm also noticing a conspicuous lack of any response to the actual behaviors I was referring to; you're dismissing that as behavior that someone ought to have to tolerate or go start their own project. Absolutely. Why should I judge anyone? I'm not forced to use their project. Last I checked lingerie and porn weren't illegal. If someone wants to represent themselves like that, then more power to them. Not every project is a corporate project and not all are going to come from that politically correct environment. I would no sooner tell someone that they couldn't fill a project with sexually explicit terms than I would tell a songwriter to not use sexually explicit lyrics.
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    Except that in order to be more successful in the field, you do need to attend certain conferences, work with certain projects, and participate in certain communities, or you'll have a severe disadvantage compared to people who can. Which is one of many, many reasons why the tech industry as a whole has a severe diversity problem. (And even in my case, I don't particularly enjoy dealing with awful people either.) So I'm happy that behaviors like that are becoming a lot less accepted, so that FOSS as a whole is more welcoming than it used to be, and it's a lot easier to write off the much smaller subset of projects with awful communities around them. Still a long way to go, though. Nothing stops people from acting that way. It's not illegal, nor should it be. But I'm looking forward to a world where when someone tries everyone else just looks at them funny and dismisses them immediately, so that people stop trying. Which brings us full circle back to the original point: given a choice (and it is a choice) between which set of people to exclude from a community, I know which set I'd prefer. You seem to have a different preference, and you're welcome to it. I look forward to that point of view losing all credibility and respect in the industry as a whole, and an increasing number of people are working towards that goal. Have a nice day.
    - exstudent2 11y ago
      I will leave you with one last thought. An increasing number of people are tired of censorship and tone policing so don't expect everyone to support your crusade.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

As usual for a FOSS project, forking is a last resort. You start out trying to convince the project you're working on, with its existing community, just as you would for some other kind of change. Calling attention to the problem can also help. If all else fails, sure, forking the project may potentially be an option to solve the problem (in which case you'd still need to convince (a subset of) the community around that project to join the fork). But that's not always an available option, depending on the project and the circumstances that lead you to working on it. As for communities, no, "fork it" is not a universal solution to problems within communities, conferences, professional events, and other environments. But even in cases where the approach finally ends up being to go start new, more welcoming environments, that's still a case for codes of conduct and similar; even if you're successful in moving a community elsewhere, if the same set (or a new set) of awful people show up with their same behavior, you need something to show what standards a community expects. And much like the Zen of Python, "explicit is better than implicit". I'm also noticing a conspicuous lack of any response to the actual behaviors I was referring to; you're dismissing that as behavior that someone ought to have to tolerate or go start their own project. This problem ought to be as universally recognized in projects as buffer overflows are. And rather than playing whack-a-mole, it makes sense to try to get better solutions in place. For instance, getting support from major hosting sites, or otherwise creating larger meta-communities of people who agree that this is a bad idea, to avoid having a different set of standards (or lack of standards) in every project. And just as it's a bad idea to write your own software license rather than using a standard one, it's a bad idea to write your own code of conduct rather than using a standard one.

exstudent2 11y ago
> I'm also noticing a conspicuous lack of any response to the actual behaviors I was referring to; you're dismissing that as behavior that someone ought to have to tolerate or go start their own project. Absolutely. Why should I judge anyone? I'm not forced to use their project. Last I checked lingerie and porn weren't illegal. If someone wants to represent themselves like that, then more power to them. Not every project is a corporate project and not all are going to come from that politically correct environment. I would no sooner tell someone that they couldn't fill a project with sexually explicit terms than I would tell a songwriter to not use sexually explicit lyrics.
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  Except that in order to be more successful in the field, you do need to attend certain conferences, work with certain projects, and participate in certain communities, or you'll have a severe disadvantage compared to people who can. Which is one of many, many reasons why the tech industry as a whole has a severe diversity problem. (And even in my case, I don't particularly enjoy dealing with awful people either.) So I'm happy that behaviors like that are becoming a lot less accepted, so that FOSS as a whole is more welcoming than it used to be, and it's a lot easier to write off the much smaller subset of projects with awful communities around them. Still a long way to go, though. Nothing stops people from acting that way. It's not illegal, nor should it be. But I'm looking forward to a world where when someone tries everyone else just looks at them funny and dismisses them immediately, so that people stop trying. Which brings us full circle back to the original point: given a choice (and it is a choice) between which set of people to exclude from a community, I know which set I'd prefer. You seem to have a different preference, and you're welcome to it. I look forward to that point of view losing all credibility and respect in the industry as a whole, and an increasing number of people are working towards that goal. Have a nice day.
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    I will leave you with one last thought. An increasing number of people are tired of censorship and tone policing so don't expect everyone to support your crusade.