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And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and h

And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. Here's my personal litmus test: Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. If the answer is yes: You clearly value technical ability and Getting Shit Done® over all else. If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. Neither of these options are completely right or completely wrong, but again, I lean towards the hacker mindset. Getting stuff done should be more important than not offending people, IMAO :)

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". Which is exactly why codes of conduct do so at length, rather than assuming everyone will agree on a "simple" definition. > This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. They'll get over it or go somewhere else. That's not what codes of conduct are there for, and that's exactly why this issue came up in the first place: some people use a code of conduct as a weapon when they're told that their actions are not acceptable. > Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome, at which point they don't get a free pass for it for any reason. Even the kernel community seems to be getting somewhat better in that regard, though sadly not nearly fast enough. Note also that criticizing code is not criticizing people. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 for a great presentation on the various levels of awfulness that often appear in a project. > If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... One person can drive off many potential contributors, and a steady flow of contributors is often more critical to a project than any one person.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  They'll get over it or go somewhere else. I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. One person can drive off many potential contributors And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. Considering one slide goes on about the importance of providing numbers, this is especially galling. More of a general question: Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community?
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    > I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. And doing so means you're perpetuating the problem. > There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. And codes of conduct help create more projects with welcoming communities. > Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. I did. Contributions welcome; hateful behavior not. Doesn't matter who the contributor is, they'd be told their behavior was unwelcome, and removed if persistent. > And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. Every time I look at this supposed "backlash", I see piles of people I don't want anywhere near any project I care about. So it sounds like the CoC is doing its job. > You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. There are myriad sources and firsthand accounts available if you look, and the numbers from that particular presentation are (to the best of my knowledge) based on a direct study. > Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community? Off the top of my head, glibc was forked to create eglibc largely because of the (now former) maintainer of glibc, and many distributions switched over to eglibc as their primary upstream. Shortly after that person was replaced as the maintainer of glibc, eglibc got merged back in and distros switched back to glibc as upstream. Many more cases where that came from.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

> And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". Which is exactly why codes of conduct do so at length, rather than assuming everyone will agree on a "simple" definition. > This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. They'll get over it or go somewhere else. That's not what codes of conduct are there for, and that's exactly why this issue came up in the first place: some people use a code of conduct as a weapon when they're told that their actions are not acceptable. > Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome, at which point they don't get a free pass for it for any reason. Even the kernel community seems to be getting somewhat better in that regard, though sadly not nearly fast enough. Note also that criticizing code is not criticizing people. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 for a great presentation on the various levels of awfulness that often appear in a project. > If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... One person can drive off many potential contributors, and a steady flow of contributors is often more critical to a project than any one person.

Karunamon 11y ago
They'll get over it or go somewhere else. I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. One person can drive off many potential contributors And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. Considering one slide goes on about the importance of providing numbers, this is especially galling. More of a general question: Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community?
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. And doing so means you're perpetuating the problem. > There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. And codes of conduct help create more projects with welcoming communities. > Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. I did. Contributions welcome; hateful behavior not. Doesn't matter who the contributor is, they'd be told their behavior was unwelcome, and removed if persistent. > And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. Every time I look at this supposed "backlash", I see piles of people I don't want anywhere near any project I care about. So it sounds like the CoC is doing its job. > You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. There are myriad sources and firsthand accounts available if you look, and the numbers from that particular presentation are (to the best of my knowledge) based on a direct study. > Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community? Off the top of my head, glibc was forked to create eglibc largely because of the (now former) maintainer of glibc, and many distributions switched over to eglibc as their primary upstream. Shortly after that person was replaced as the maintainer of glibc, eglibc got merged back in and distros switched back to glibc as upstream. Many more cases where that came from.