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I'm more a fan of the No Code of Conduct (not to be confused with the awful action movie of the same name): https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC https://github.co

I'm more a fan of the No Code of Conduct (not to be confused with the awful action movie of the same name): https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC ..at least when it comes to the hacker ethos, which is something, IMO, we should all strive for. Think of it as the WTFPL of the "thou shalt not" world. More to the point, I really fail to understand why documents like the one Github is working on are necessary. Most FOSS projects I'm aware of are quite adept at dismissing dickery in all its forms, rather than adopting a futile (and controversial, and agenda-driven) approach to defining it. (Huh, someone already did something that's a lot more like the WTFPL. Predictably, it's rather acerbic: https://github.com/ciafwywcoc/ciafwywcoc/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT https://github.com/ciafwywcoc/ciafwywcoc/blob/master/CODE_OF...)

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> Most FOSS projects I'm aware of are quite adept at dismissing dickery in all its forms Depends on the projects you work with. Some are good at maintaining a great community (Rust, for instance), and some are quite awful at it, or actively cultivate a hostile community (by welcoming awful people into it with open arms). There are enough awful people who know how to code that it's worth stating up front that "this project doesn't accept awful, hateful people, no matter how interesting their technical contributions". Because otherwise you end up with projects where "well, we'd kick them out, but nobody else knows how to do what they're doing, so...". See also http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... .
- Karunamon 11y ago
  And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. Here's my personal litmus test: Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. If the answer is yes: You clearly value technical ability and Getting Shit Done® over all else. If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. Neither of these options are completely right or completely wrong, but again, I lean towards the hacker mindset. Getting stuff done should be more important than not offending people, IMAO :)
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    > And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". Which is exactly why codes of conduct do so at length, rather than assuming everyone will agree on a "simple" definition. > This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. They'll get over it or go somewhere else. That's not what codes of conduct are there for, and that's exactly why this issue came up in the first place: some people use a code of conduct as a weapon when they're told that their actions are not acceptable. > Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome, at which point they don't get a free pass for it for any reason. Even the kernel community seems to be getting somewhat better in that regard, though sadly not nearly fast enough. Note also that criticizing code is not criticizing people. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 for a great presentation on the various levels of awfulness that often appear in a project. > If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... One person can drive off many potential contributors, and a steady flow of contributors is often more critical to a project than any one person.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      They'll get over it or go somewhere else. I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. One person can drive off many potential contributors And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. Considering one slide goes on about the importance of providing numbers, this is especially galling. More of a general question: Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community?

JoshTriplett 11y ago

> Most FOSS projects I'm aware of are quite adept at dismissing dickery in all its forms Depends on the projects you work with. Some are good at maintaining a great community (Rust, for instance), and some are quite awful at it, or actively cultivate a hostile community (by welcoming awful people into it with open arms). There are enough awful people who know how to code that it's worth stating up front that "this project doesn't accept awful, hateful people, no matter how interesting their technical contributions". Because otherwise you end up with projects where "well, we'd kick them out, but nobody else knows how to do what they're doing, so...". See also http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... .

Karunamon 11y ago
And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. Here's my personal litmus test: Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. If the answer is yes: You clearly value technical ability and Getting Shit Done® over all else. If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. Neither of these options are completely right or completely wrong, but again, I lean towards the hacker mindset. Getting stuff done should be more important than not offending people, IMAO :)
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  > And then you've entered the quagmire of defining "awful, hateful people". Which is exactly why codes of conduct do so at length, rather than assuming everyone will agree on a "simple" definition. > This is not a winnable battle. Some people find being told "no" to be oppressive and horrible. They'll get over it or go somewhere else. That's not what codes of conduct are there for, and that's exactly why this issue came up in the first place: some people use a code of conduct as a weapon when they're told that their actions are not acceptable. > Would you accept Linus Torvalds on your project? He's known for his technical ability, but also known for taking little to no crap and calling out said crap with extreme prejudice. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome, at which point they don't get a free pass for it for any reason. Even the kernel community seems to be getting somewhat better in that regard, though sadly not nearly fast enough. Note also that criticizing code is not criticizing people. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O2zgNfvsh0 for a great presentation on the various levels of awfulness that often appear in a project. > If the answer is no: You clearly value social communication over Getting Shit Done®. http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-you... One person can drive off many potential contributors, and a steady flow of contributors is often more critical to a project than any one person.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    They'll get over it or go somewhere else. I could say the same thing of people who don't like the atmosphere on a given project. There are plenty of projects with plenty of different kinds of communities. Sure, anyone is welcome, right up until the point where they make themselves unwelcome Please answer the question as asked and in the spirit it was intended in. One person can drive off many potential contributors And one bad CoC that legitimizes certain kinds of bad behavior can do the same. The backlash speaks to the truth of that. You keep linking that slideshow - not one of the claims made there are sourced or backed up. Considering one slide goes on about the importance of providing numbers, this is especially galling. More of a general question: Is anyone aware of a FOSS project which was killed due to a lack of contributors brought on by the perceived negative atmosphere of the community?