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The Unique Weapons of Ancient Japan
- sdrothrock 11y agoSome notes: - You may be familiar with tetsubi in the West as "caltrops." - I've seen yawara for sale on keychains and cell phone straps for young women. - The sasumata still exists today, minus the nasty barbs around the haft; every public school has one or two to be used for subduing intruders. I was (un?)lucky enough to participate in a drill once -- they did a pretty good job of subduing me and pinning me down!
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- venomsnake 11y ago> Japan’s most famous weapon needs little introduction. Japanese blacksmiths’ method of repeatedly heating and folding the steel made a katana’s sharpness and strength unique among the world’s swords. And you can stop reading here. The author probably has not done due diligence on his research.
- Kiro 11y agoWhat's wrong?
- venomsnake 11y agoThe techniques in the making are not unique, the performance too. There were a lot of fine swords made everywhere in the world using similar methods. Europe used them IIRC. And we have wootz (which is entirely different beast, but also very high performing steel).
- JimmyM 11y agoI think that people are downvoting you because they're not sure what you're getting at or have an issue with tone, as I think I know what you are referring to here: http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm#.Vchr7RNViko http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm#.Vchr7RNViko The Japanese blacksmiths' method of repeatedly heating and folding the steel was actually a way of countering the poor quality of the raw material they had, according to some other sources I've read but cannot find right now. I assume that you didn't include this information because you know a lot about the topic and thought it was all common knowledge, but I'm not sure that it is.
- Steko 11y agoSo I downvoted the comment mostly because it was dismissive of the entire article seemingly for the terrible crime of ... not going out of it's way to mythbust the 'Katanas Are Just Better' trope? I think the article as a whole was interesting and even if you concede parent's point on forging (see below), the rest of the article had a lot of information. Also is the article even wrong? The forging does create a very sharp edge (your own citation and other ARMA articles like Katana vs Longsword [1] go into this) and yes a very hard core. Yes the primary point is to remove impurities but why does the article become worthless for glossing over this, a point which is likely not interesting to casual reader looking for basic info and pictures of new weapons? [1] http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
- venomsnake 11y agoIt was perpetuating the trope actually. Not not mythbusting it. Forging does not create a sharp edge. The micro structure that gives sharp edge is created during the heat treatment.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- Steko 11y agoThis seems excessively nit picky. Is the 'heat treatment' technically part of the forging? Technically no but for the layman's idea of forging it probably is ok to say yes. Did that one line in the article perpetuate the trope? In the sense that it means 'merely wielding a katana makes one a superhuman fighter' I would say 'clearly no' but in the sense of 'katana is the coolest sword' perhaps. Did katanas have world renowned sharpness? I would say yes. World renowned 'strongness' (which can have a lot more meanings)? Notsomuch.
- venomsnake 11y agoThe katana making techniques (pattern welding, differential HT) were not unique. So is the performance. Claiming otherwise is perpetuating the myth. The Japanese sword got its "world renown sharpness" the same way magnum .44 become the "world's most powerful handgun" after Dirty Harry. Also swords are not very sharp even with highly polished edge. Too high angle. If you want to see something really sharp - take a walk to some of the better restaurants.
- edem 11y agoVery impressive. I was not aware that ancient Japanese weaponry were so...thorough.
- ekianjo 11y agoMedieval weapons in Europe were very thorough as well but they don't talk about it as much.
- eifskdlcmrs 11y agoZatoichi's cane sword is not listed.
- neotrinity 11y agoWoah ... pressure points (Nardi) is the same in Tamil too ! South Indian martial art form covers the use of Nadi (pressure points/nerves) to disarm/disable opponents. I think this would have reached Japan from mainland China. Also some research and folklore suggests that Bodhidarma was in fact a Pallava Prince who went to China and spread the marital art forms. However hard evidence is quite scant esp. in India.
- FroshKiller 11y agoThat is not the word "nardi." It's the name Nardi, as in Thomas Nardi, the author of a magazine article cited as a source at the end of the post.
- neotrinity 11y agoHmmm. I might have got over excited there! Should have become suspicious when google din't give me anything related to "Japanese + nardi"
- mhd 11y agoSwords and bows are unique? Edo period is ancient?
- sfjailbird 11y agoI shudder to think of living a life where I would have to employ weapons like these.
- some1else 11y agoThey didn't mention bo-shuriken[1], which is a spear-shaped throwable metal "dart". The throwing technique is in some ways similar to the way a katana is swung. A circular motion, taking the hand behind the wielders shoulder and unrolling straight in the opponents direction. As there is no rotating motion involved, these are short range projectiles. The ones I saw were top-heavy and had tail feathers. Checking the YouTube videos, some users instruct a more knife throwing grip. However, the technique explained to me was leading with the back hand side, releasing the dart from the palm[2] towards the end of the motion. [1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=bo-shuriken&safe=off&hl=en&biw=1376&bih=761&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAmoVChMInazwoa6exwIVChUsCh0s9Q57 https://www.google.com/search?q=bo-shuriken&safe=off&hl=en&b... [2]: http://cl.ly/image/012R0D1W0t3T http://cl.ly/image/012R0D1W0t3T
- bunderbunder 11y agoIt's a difficult method of throwing to learn, but if you can master it it has the advantage that you don't have to worry as much about distance to the target. With the traditional spinning throw, you need to make sure the knife will reach the target at a point in the turn where the blade is pointed toward it. I think it's probably a much more appropriate throw for use during hand-to-hand combat. My understanding is that the shuriken was primarily intended as a weapon swordsmen could use to gain an advantage by distracting their opponents.
- digi_owl 11y agoAh yes, the Japanese weapons. A pet theory of mine is that they get so much attention because the Japanese held onto feudalism far longer than the colonial powers. As such, the colonial representatives attached some romanticism to Japan and the Samurai. Something similar laid the foundation for the troubles Iraq has faced to this day, if Adam Curtis is to be trusted. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-385e-808f-c9c7c38d1cb7 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...
- Zikes 11y agoIs it not also possible that they get so much attention because they are genuinely interesting?
- dragontamer 11y agoThey are genuinely interesting in part because they're "Far East" and seem foreign. With that said, knowing Western designs of weapons is also extremely interesting. The progression of simple sword -> sword+crossbar -> sword+ crossbar + ring guard -> Rapier -> Basket-hilted sword says a lot about Western Martial Arts (aka: Fencing). At some point, people figured out that grabbing the crossbar was more comfortable and more precise. So additional protections needed to be added to the top of swords (finger-rings / sweepings). The full anatomy of the Rapier is astonishing. Every part of the weapon serves a purpose. Even then, Rapiers were mostly status symbols for the rich. Weapons of War were far more simple and practical. (Well... not always: Landsknechte Zweihander == lulz. They probably discontinued that weapon because it was too expensive, heavy, and unweildly. But man, what an awesome looking sword )
- pherq 11y agoZweihanders/montantes/whatever you wish to call them were extremely effective and not nearly as heavy as you might think. In general, even the largest swords didn't weigh much more than about three kilograms (and thus were lighter than rifles and some polearms), and the hands were far enough apart that you had enough leverage to move quickly. If you poke around on youtube for people sparring with such weapons you'll see that they're as quick as most other swords (and have an advantage in reach). On the article itself, while it's a nice list, it perpetuates some myths about the weapons in question (e.g. that katana was in someway superior to western swords -- high quality specimens on either side would probably be pretty closely matched), and has some fairly glaring admissions (e.g. the yari (Japanese spear) which was one of the most common weapons among footsoldiers for a good deal of Japan's history).
- crdb 11y agoA fantastic graphic novel that covers these and others (such as the bell warden's third son's sajinrai [1] in vol. 4) is Lone Wolf and Cub, which was written by amateur Edo historians and effectively cemented them as legends of the manga community. It is a great work which inspired many others including Frank Miller's Sin City and Ronin, and Collins' Road to Perdition. I personally think that it is on par with Watchmen (arguably the greatest graphic novel, and one that tops most lists) - certainly no other works had the same impact. Perhaps because it is in black and white, very long, and originally in Japanese, it's nowhere near as famous. [1] "a blinding compound comprised of a mix of ferrous sand and strychnine nitrate"
- dragontamer 11y agoAncient Weapons of Japan are definitely interesting... as are weapons around the world in general! The most interesting to me are the various non-lethal (erm... less-lethal) weapons that have been invented. The less-lethal weapons around the world give insight into the minds of Police across all ages. Today's weapon of choice for Police is the Police Baton... which is basically a Japanese Tonfa. But seeing the Japanese Jitte, Sai, Kusarigama, Manriki-kusari, and Sasumata... you can see how Police from previous ages were focused on: * Bashing (Tonfa, Manriki-kusari) * Disarming (Jitte or Sai) * Binding (Kusarigama or Manriki-kusari) * Pinning (Sasumata) ---------- Western Society had Armor (ie: Gauntlets) for catching weapons. Armor in general is also a major advantage in grappling / pinning foes. I'm not really aware of any weapon explicitly built for disarming... since a Knight could always just grab the Peasant's Sword with his gauntlet. But the "Anti-Peasant Weapon" has always been the Mace or the Flail in Western Cultures. Both are similar in concept to the Tonfa and Manriki-kusari: smack people with a blunt object. The goal is subjugation and intimidation. Spinning weapons (Flails) are intimidating but ultimately less lethal than a Sword or Spear. Knights and Soldier statues use swords and spears: weapons of war. While statues of Kings and Princes are armed with Flails and Mace: symbols of "less lethal" weapons of law enforcement. All weapons tell a story. The Kuwa (Japanese Hoe), Kama and Kunai are peasant tools... and tell a story of inventive rebellion. Seeing a master Kuwa or Kama fighter says that "anyone can fight, even lowly farmer peasants... even with farm tools" Much like Pitchforks and Torches, except Japanese Martial Artists have honed the peasant weapons into a martial art in of themselves. The Polearms tell a story of the horrors of battle. The multi-point Halberd is shaped to stop a horse (spear tip that widens to stop momentum), pull the rider off a horse (hook), and break shields (axe). Japanese Yari are similarly diverse as western polearms. The different Yari designs give the greatest insight to warfare in Japan. (I bet you the Jumonji yari was used to stop charging horses. The massive crossbar is there for a reason). Hozu hi Yari and Kama Yari are similar to Halberds, in that they are clearly designed for "single weapon / multiple uses". Just some food for thought.
- norea-armozel 11y agoI have a (possibly) dumb question. Did the Japanese also have a prohibition on the ownership on easy to use ranged weapons for peasants the same way the Europeans did (specifically crossbows)?
- Eleutheria 11y agoHey guys, off-topic and forgive me beforehand but I know there was an article about ramen and soups very similar to those in that page a month ago but I am unable to find it not even in google. If any kind soul knows the url it'll be greatly appreciated. I love japanese food in all its presentations. Btw, that site rocks for japanese info.
- brokencup 11y agoA Guide to the Regional Ramen of Japan ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9622949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9622949
- norea-armozel 11y agoThe Tekkan and Hachiwari remind me of warhammers and claymores that were used against armored opponents in European warfare. It seems once you rely on armor someone has to always figure out a way to deal with it. In Europe, it was the "spam in a can" approach that won out. The hachiwari looks more like a "peel the shell" approach. Either way it seems to be an effective approach.