3 ms·

Thing is containers themselves are not immutable. One implementation (Docker) enforces this but it's not so when using raw namespaces/cgroups, systemd-nspawn or

by jpgvm 11y ago

Thing is containers themselves are not immutable. One implementation (Docker) enforces this but it's not so when using raw namespaces/cgroups, systemd-nspawn or lxc/lxd etc. IMO it's not tools that are the problem but a lack of deep understanding. A lot of people practicing "DevOps" lack the raw knowledge.

fapjacks 11y ago
This I can agree with. It almost seems as though this new kind of "DevOps" (to use the same air-quoted term as you) is being used as a band-aid for companies to be able to accomplish traditional sysadmin goals, without having to pay for people with depth of knowledge. Things like Docker and cloud services make it easy to think that one does not need the knowledge a sysadmin needed to have ten years ago, but that's not true. What's happened is that applications like Docker have obscured the need for that knowledge by making things easier to accomplish. And then when those companies run into problems, nobody on the tech team knows how to put out the fire. Now, I suppose that's not such a bad thing if you're outsourcing all that work to a cloud services provider. Then it's a matter of opening a support ticket. But then again, you're at the mercy of those providers. I can see why Docker is so attractive for companies, which implies one can self-host these cloud services and save a ton of money, while also appearing to not need that raw knowledge because of ease-of-use provided by applications like Docker. It looks like an attractive way to cut down on quite a lot of cost. But what happens is that the cost is actually offloaded from needing the knowledge to build and maintain the infrastructure, and onto the moment of failure. And the thing about that cost offloading is that this cost could kill your business. Just picture a tech team with red status pages and buzzing phones, but without the knowledge to dissect what's happening. It's a ticking time bomb. Also I should mention I'm saying this as a huge, huge fan and user of Docker, but also as someone with twenty years in the industry, watching the "new DevOps" crowd.

by jpgvm 11y ago

fapjacks 11y ago

This I can agree with. It almost seems as though this new kind of "DevOps" (to use the same air-quoted term as you) is being used as a band-aid for companies to be able to accomplish traditional sysadmin goals, without having to pay for people with depth of knowledge. Things like Docker and cloud services make it easy to think that one does not need the knowledge a sysadmin needed to have ten years ago, but that's not true. What's happened is that applications like Docker have obscured the need for that knowledge by making things easier to accomplish. And then when those companies run into problems, nobody on the tech team knows how to put out the fire. Now, I suppose that's not such a bad thing if you're outsourcing all that work to a cloud services provider. Then it's a matter of opening a support ticket. But then again, you're at the mercy of those providers. I can see why Docker is so attractive for companies, which implies one can self-host these cloud services and save a ton of money, while also appearing to not need that raw knowledge because of ease-of-use provided by applications like Docker. It looks like an attractive way to cut down on quite a lot of cost. But what happens is that the cost is actually offloaded from needing the knowledge to build and maintain the infrastructure, and onto the moment of failure. And the thing about that cost offloading is that this cost could kill your business. Just picture a tech team with red status pages and buzzing phones, but without the knowledge to dissect what's happening. It's a ticking time bomb. Also I should mention I'm saying this as a huge, huge fan and user of Docker, but also as someone with twenty years in the industry, watching the "new DevOps" crowd.