4 ms·

I keep seeing all these programming articles and schools that'll teach you in 3 months and you'll make 70k+. Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wage

I keep seeing all these programming articles and schools that'll teach you in 3 months and you'll make 70k+. Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down.

enraged_camel 11y ago
>>Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down. Why resort to such a conspiracy theory? Do you have any evidence? I subscribe to a much simpler explanation: the market is simply responding to demand for higher-paying jobs. Colleges are obviously failing to train people for such jobs, so vocational schools (i.e. for coding) are picking up the slack.
- no1youknowz 11y ago
  I saw this recently. Make of it what you will. http://i.imgur.com/VzVNAFc.png http://i.imgur.com/VzVNAFc.png
  - aklemm 11y ago
    Hmm, help me figure out what to make of it. Where did see you it (I'm trying to understand the context)?
    - no1youknowz 11y ago
      It was a response to the comment: >>Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down. As you can see here. Someone who was an analyst, self taught themselves to "code" in rails, php, python and javascript. Which by their own omission is using "scripting" techniques to build the application from a template. They are wanting to go on a bootcamp where they cramp you with tons years of knowledge in just what 12 weeks? Once working, they expect to earn 85+k. Does this remind you of anything? Remember the whole MCSE debacle pre 2001. Where colleges where promising $100k salaries for doing tech support. Where are the wages now? Oh yeah, for an MCSE, A+, Cisco Cert don't expect to be paid much.
      - selimthegrim 11y ago
        someone tell these guys that http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/why-laptops-are-mightier-than-guns http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/why-lap...
      - kitsunesoba 11y ago
        Anybody entering the market that has even a grain of intelligence would be spending their time both before and after being hired learning how to engineer software (language/framework agnostic) instead of forever monkeying around with a scripting language in a single environment. Doing anything less is eventual career and paycheck suicide. Python or Ruby are fine as starting points, but if you stop there you're fucking yourself over.
- UK-AL 11y ago
  Colleges do a good job providing general cs skills. Bootcamps teach you how to use ruby on rails +CSS + HTML + js, and that's it. Data structures? Algorthim analysis? Databases? Machine learning? No
svisser 11y ago
Or: someone is trying to make money from bootcamps while claiming there are shortcuts to a high salary.
- javajosh 11y ago
  I have to wonder what sort of code your average bootcamp graduate is really capable of producing. I'd say that you could get really, really good at a single concrete stack and toolset in that time (e.g. osx, bash, Linode, postgres, rails, chrome, sublime, chrome dev tools, maybe nginx, wireshark, redis). But as soon as you swap out even one item, the pain will start. Now do it with Windows, power shell, Azure, mysql, php, firefox, notepad++, firebug, IIS, mongo. Now do it with Linux, zsh, Digital Ocean Meteor, Safari, vi, django, apache. Now do it with Linux, bash, AWS, Java, Spring, Oracle, Eclipse, Glassfish. Now do it with RedHat in Docker on AWS running Postgres, Redis, Nginx, Java and Node, over WebSockets over any browser. Now you will know what you are doing. It will take about 10 years.
  - johnmaguire2013 11y ago
    Of course, within ten years half of the listed products will be gone, and replaced with the new hotness. But there are definitely a lot of low-level and high-level concepts you pick up along the way, and what I tell everyone who is learning is that the MORE stuff you try, the better you will be at learning MORE stuff. Every piece you learn about, you'll find another piece later that mirrors, borrows concepts, or shares ancestry, and you'll pick it up twice as fast as the last time.
    - javajosh 11y ago
      I'd go even further, that if you learn how to do it with lots of different tools in different combinations, then you get a feel for what is important and what is not, what is fashion and what is important, and what software applications are, in general. Most of all, you can begin to make the critical distinction between "application" and "infrastructure". But this is a very difficult path, one made slippery with tears.
paulpauper 11y ago
I am doubtful that one of these boot-campers will be as good as someone with 10+ years of coding experience, so there will still be a wage premium for the most competent of coders
throwaway838 11y ago
Notice also that now it's all about "coding" and never programming or software development/engineering. This is deliberate. And good luck getting respect from non-technical managers, policy makers, or the public at large when your actual job title is "coder" and all of these articles, bootcamps, and CodeCademy type websites have convinced everyone that "coding" (unlike law or medicine) is super easy and anyone can do it! "Why isn't the ERP system ready yet? It's just coding, after all... I did that on CodeCademy when I was in high school as part of the National Teach Everyone To Code Initiative and it was easy. I already did the hard part by telling you exactly what we need (and telling you again each of the fifty or so times our requirements changed); all you have to do is code out the details. What's the hold up?"
gaius 11y ago
It's the same as the "scientist shortage" except instead of taking 5 years to churn out PhDs who can't get research jobs, you can churn out "coders" in only 12 weeks!

I keep seeing all these programming articles and schools that'll teach you in 3 months and you'll make 70k+. Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down.

enraged_camel 11y ago

>>Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down. Why resort to such a conspiracy theory? Do you have any evidence? I subscribe to a much simpler explanation: the market is simply responding to demand for higher-paying jobs. Colleges are obviously failing to train people for such jobs, so vocational schools (i.e. for coding) are picking up the slack.

no1youknowz 11y ago
I saw this recently. Make of it what you will. http://i.imgur.com/VzVNAFc.png http://i.imgur.com/VzVNAFc.png
- aklemm 11y ago
  Hmm, help me figure out what to make of it. Where did see you it (I'm trying to understand the context)?
  - no1youknowz 11y ago
    It was a response to the comment: >>Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down. As you can see here. Someone who was an analyst, self taught themselves to "code" in rails, php, python and javascript. Which by their own omission is using "scripting" techniques to build the application from a template. They are wanting to go on a bootcamp where they cramp you with tons years of knowledge in just what 12 weeks? Once working, they expect to earn 85+k. Does this remind you of anything? Remember the whole MCSE debacle pre 2001. Where colleges where promising $100k salaries for doing tech support. Where are the wages now? Oh yeah, for an MCSE, A+, Cisco Cert don't expect to be paid much.
    - selimthegrim 11y ago
      someone tell these guys that http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/why-laptops-are-mightier-than-guns http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/06/why-lap...
    - kitsunesoba 11y ago
      Anybody entering the market that has even a grain of intelligence would be spending their time both before and after being hired learning how to engineer software (language/framework agnostic) instead of forever monkeying around with a scripting language in a single environment. Doing anything less is eventual career and paycheck suicide. Python or Ruby are fine as starting points, but if you stop there you're fucking yourself over.
UK-AL 11y ago
Colleges do a good job providing general cs skills. Bootcamps teach you how to use ruby on rails +CSS + HTML + js, and that's it. Data structures? Algorthim analysis? Databases? Machine learning? No

svisser 11y ago

Or: someone is trying to make money from bootcamps while claiming there are shortcuts to a high salary.

javajosh 11y ago
I have to wonder what sort of code your average bootcamp graduate is really capable of producing. I'd say that you could get really, really good at a single concrete stack and toolset in that time (e.g. osx, bash, Linode, postgres, rails, chrome, sublime, chrome dev tools, maybe nginx, wireshark, redis). But as soon as you swap out even one item, the pain will start. Now do it with Windows, power shell, Azure, mysql, php, firefox, notepad++, firebug, IIS, mongo. Now do it with Linux, zsh, Digital Ocean Meteor, Safari, vi, django, apache. Now do it with Linux, bash, AWS, Java, Spring, Oracle, Eclipse, Glassfish. Now do it with RedHat in Docker on AWS running Postgres, Redis, Nginx, Java and Node, over WebSockets over any browser. Now you will know what you are doing. It will take about 10 years.
- johnmaguire2013 11y ago
  Of course, within ten years half of the listed products will be gone, and replaced with the new hotness. But there are definitely a lot of low-level and high-level concepts you pick up along the way, and what I tell everyone who is learning is that the MORE stuff you try, the better you will be at learning MORE stuff. Every piece you learn about, you'll find another piece later that mirrors, borrows concepts, or shares ancestry, and you'll pick it up twice as fast as the last time.
  - javajosh 11y ago
    I'd go even further, that if you learn how to do it with lots of different tools in different combinations, then you get a feel for what is important and what is not, what is fashion and what is important, and what software applications are, in general. Most of all, you can begin to make the critical distinction between "application" and "infrastructure". But this is a very difficult path, one made slippery with tears.

paulpauper 11y ago

I am doubtful that one of these boot-campers will be as good as someone with 10+ years of coding experience, so there will still be a wage premium for the most competent of coders

throwaway838 11y ago

Notice also that now it's all about "coding" and never programming or software development/engineering. This is deliberate. And good luck getting respect from non-technical managers, policy makers, or the public at large when your actual job title is "coder" and all of these articles, bootcamps, and CodeCademy type websites have convinced everyone that "coding" (unlike law or medicine) is super easy and anyone can do it! "Why isn't the ERP system ready yet? It's just coding, after all... I did that on CodeCademy when I was in high school as part of the National Teach Everyone To Code Initiative and it was easy. I already did the hard part by telling you exactly what we need (and telling you again each of the fifty or so times our requirements changed); all you have to do is code out the details. What's the hold up?"

gaius 11y ago

It's the same as the "scientist shortage" except instead of taking 5 years to churn out PhDs who can't get research jobs, you can churn out "coders" in only 12 weeks!