7 ms·

Isn't Rust the next C?

by alexro 11y ago

steveklabnik 11y ago
That depends on what you think of as being the core of C. Or, for example, some see Rust as the next C++, which is itself the next C, so is Rust _transitively_ the next C? Programming languages never die, so I don't have a personal opinion on this point, exactly. For me, I would only write C code if I was working on a C project, or if I couldn't get a Rust compiler for the target platform. My starting point would be Rust, it would have to be disqualified for me to use C. Then again, I am the most biased person possible... (and also prefer C to C++) But regardless, C will never, ever die, so talk of Rust 'killing' or 'replacing' C is misguided, in my opinion.
- tinco 11y ago
  I'd consider a language dead if there were no (or very little) new projects being done in it. For example you might say COBOL is alive because many financial institutions still run COBOL services, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would advocate to start a new standalone COBOL project. (Queue person who started a COBOL project last week..) In that sense, I think Rust has a real shot at at least severely wounding C++ or at least opening the door for the real C++ killer (it might be that Rust is a smidgen too strict in the mut ref department to really kill C++, I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs). We're talking about a 15 year timescale though, so that's at least 3 era's of computing.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > In that sense, I think Rust has a real shot at at least severely wounding C++ or at least opening the door for the real C++ killer (it might be that Rust is a smidgen too strict in the mut ref department to really kill C++, I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs). Experienced X devs pushing back against Y doesn't mean that Y isn't going to displace X; the big factor in displacement isn't whether experienced devs will voluntarily shift (even if Y does displace X, the experienced X devs have the most vested interest, and will be among the last to voluntarily move to Y.)
  - steveklabnik 11y ago
    > I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs Yeah, this bit is really interesting. It seems fairly split, though I'm not sure in what ratio. Some C++ devs are really into it, but others are very opposed. When you're used to total freedom, but then the compiler yells at you, there can be frustration... We've also seen a _tremendous_ amount of interest from people who don't strongly identify as a 'systems programmer' at present. RustCamp was last weekend, and the audience is very broad. It's a classic "growing the pie" situation: Rust may or may not take away some of C++'s audience, but it very well just might make the pool of systems programmers significantly larger. We'll see!
    - BonsaiDen 11y ago
      > We've also seen a _tremendous_ amount of interest from people who don't strongly identify as a 'systems programmer' at present. Can't underline this enough, as a long time WebDev with a lot of JavaScript, Python and Lua experience, Rust really feels like a door opener into the bare metal* world. Especially as a Node Dev I felt right at home with Cargo. And as someone who only rarely touches C/C++, having the compiler scream at me for the first 10 days or so was probably the best "tutorial" about memory management and ownership I've ever "read" :) Rust really made me think a lot deeper about who / where and when stuff will be owned and eventually destroyed. Overall, the language, cargo and everything around them fit so well together, learning it has been a real joy so far :) * Well I've also done Z80 assembler on GameBoy before but that's probably not what people today would consider "bare metal" these days.
    - andresmanz 11y ago
      For me it's not really the freedom. I already said that elsewhere, but: I don't mind when the compiler yells at me. I just don't like the compiler to criticize my coding style by default. Initially, I liked Rust because it reminded me of C++. But then I began reading the book and basically it was full of statements about the coding style I prefer (and will keep) being bad. That's an incredibly stupid reason, but it kind of keeps me away from the language. But it's also the fact that C++ still is very widespread and has tons of libraries. I wouldn't say never, of course. I'm looking forward to using Rust. Just not now.
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    I actually think that the scenario of Rust versus C++ is going to be quite interesting to see unravel, precisely because I don't think one is going to definitively weaken the other, but both be on their respective tails. This is because of the abnormally dramatic evolution C++ has seen over the past 5 years or so, and is hectically continuing. Though this has pretty much definitively made C++ too large for any single person, and there are some fundamental semantics that ensure Rust will always have the high ground in some areas, the lines related to functionality are getting blurrier.
  - bitbckt 11y ago
    "Cue", not "queue". :)
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  "Programming languages never die" There have been literally thousands of programming languages over the years ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages ) and I can't imagine that more than a handful (which most people itt can name) have survived from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
  - steveklabnik 11y ago
    Maybe I should say "Programming languages that were used at wide scale never die." My "mojikun" brainfuck variant is certainly dead, but then again, it was never really 'alive' either.
  - tbirdz 11y ago
    This may be a bit like hair-splitting, but the language doesn't die, only the implementation does. As long as the language was specified in enough detail, a new compiler could be written for it, and be able to compile the old source code in the language. There is an interesting parallel to natural human languages here as well, a language like Latin is considered dead because no one speaks it as a primary language, but humanity still has the ability to translate and understand Latin texts. The same applies to say Egyptian Heiroglyphics as well. In any case it's interesting to think about.
nulltype 11y ago
Spiritually it seems to be a replacement for C++. If you're using C++ for something, Rust seems like a well-thought-out C++. If you're using C for something, then probably not, for the same reasons you are not using C++.
- pcwalton 11y ago
  If you're using C and encountering memory safety problems, however, then you may want to consider Rust. Moving to C++ from C offers a small safety benefit and a large expressiveness benefit at the cost of a very large complexity drawback. Moving to Rust from C, on the other hand, offers a large safety benefit and a large expressiveness benefit at the cost of a significant complexity drawback. (I think Rust as a language is less complex than C++, and the complexity of C/C++ undefined behavior rules completely vanishes in safe Rust.)
  - dlanouette 11y ago
    Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "very large/significant complexity drawback"? From what I've seen (which is admittedly small) Rust is much less complex than either C or C++.
    - JoshTriplett 11y ago
      Rust is a larger language than C, though far smaller than C++. More importantly, with Rust you should expect to spend more of your time convincing the compiler that you've written correct code, which requires a reasonable understanding of Rust semantics. (The compiler makes that fairly easy, but it can still be a bit of a shock when you're staring at code that seems obviously correct to you but the compiler has no way to know that.) On the other hand, once you do convince the compiler, you have an excellent chance that the code actually is correct, and you'll spend far less time chasing down crazy runtime bugs.
      - selestify 11y ago
        > On the other hand, once you do convince the compiler, you have an excellent chance that the code actually is correct, and you'll spend far less time chasing down crazy runtime bugs. That's what I love about Haskell as well. Know of any other languages like this?
kibwen 11y ago
Rust is suitable for a great deal of what C is used for (extending higher-level languages, writing language-agnostic libraries, embedded development, etc.) but Rust will likely never support as wide a variety of obscure platforms as C does. That said, Rust already supports Linux, OS X, Windows, and Android as first-class citizens, and support for FreeBSD, iOS, PSP, and lots of embedded and ARM platforms is currently provided by the community.
- spike021 11y ago
  PSP?
  - kibwen 11y ago
    https://fnordig.de/2014/12/03/a-story-of-hacking-or-rust-on-the-psp/ https://fnordig.de/2014/12/03/a-story-of-hacking-or-rust-on-...
    - spike021 11y ago
      That's pretty cool! I haven't been in on the PSP "scene" in years. Nice to see things are still going on there.
  - mtinkerhess 11y ago
    PlayStation Portable, the predecessor to the PS Vita.
    - spike021 11y ago
      Yeah. Wasn't sure if that's what the abbreviation was for. I miss hacking and making PSP homebrew.
- masklinn 11y ago
  And C remains the linga franca of FFIs so that's there to stay.
  - 11y ago

Isn't Rust the next C?

by alexro 11y ago

Isn't Rust the next C?

That depends on what you think of as being the core of C. Or, for example, some see Rust as the next C++, which is itself the next C, so is Rust _transitively_ the next C? Programming languages never die, so I don't have a personal opinion on this point, exactly. For me, I would only write C code if I was working on a C project, or if I couldn't get a Rust compiler for the target platform. My starting point would be Rust, it would have to be disqualified for me to use C. Then again, I am the most biased person possible... (and also prefer C to C++) But regardless, C will never, ever die, so talk of Rust 'killing' or 'replacing' C is misguided, in my opinion.

tinco 11y ago
I'd consider a language dead if there were no (or very little) new projects being done in it. For example you might say COBOL is alive because many financial institutions still run COBOL services, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would advocate to start a new standalone COBOL project. (Queue person who started a COBOL project last week..) In that sense, I think Rust has a real shot at at least severely wounding C++ or at least opening the door for the real C++ killer (it might be that Rust is a smidgen too strict in the mut ref department to really kill C++, I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs). We're talking about a 15 year timescale though, so that's at least 3 era's of computing.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > In that sense, I think Rust has a real shot at at least severely wounding C++ or at least opening the door for the real C++ killer (it might be that Rust is a smidgen too strict in the mut ref department to really kill C++, I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs). Experienced X devs pushing back against Y doesn't mean that Y isn't going to displace X; the big factor in displacement isn't whether experienced devs will voluntarily shift (even if Y does displace X, the experienced X devs have the most vested interest, and will be among the last to voluntarily move to Y.)
- steveklabnik 11y ago
  > I'm encountering a lot of push back from experienced C++ devs Yeah, this bit is really interesting. It seems fairly split, though I'm not sure in what ratio. Some C++ devs are really into it, but others are very opposed. When you're used to total freedom, but then the compiler yells at you, there can be frustration... We've also seen a _tremendous_ amount of interest from people who don't strongly identify as a 'systems programmer' at present. RustCamp was last weekend, and the audience is very broad. It's a classic "growing the pie" situation: Rust may or may not take away some of C++'s audience, but it very well just might make the pool of systems programmers significantly larger. We'll see!
  - BonsaiDen 11y ago
    > We've also seen a _tremendous_ amount of interest from people who don't strongly identify as a 'systems programmer' at present. Can't underline this enough, as a long time WebDev with a lot of JavaScript, Python and Lua experience, Rust really feels like a door opener into the bare metal* world. Especially as a Node Dev I felt right at home with Cargo. And as someone who only rarely touches C/C++, having the compiler scream at me for the first 10 days or so was probably the best "tutorial" about memory management and ownership I've ever "read" :) Rust really made me think a lot deeper about who / where and when stuff will be owned and eventually destroyed. Overall, the language, cargo and everything around them fit so well together, learning it has been a real joy so far :) * Well I've also done Z80 assembler on GameBoy before but that's probably not what people today would consider "bare metal" these days.
  - andresmanz 11y ago
    For me it's not really the freedom. I already said that elsewhere, but: I don't mind when the compiler yells at me. I just don't like the compiler to criticize my coding style by default. Initially, I liked Rust because it reminded me of C++. But then I began reading the book and basically it was full of statements about the coding style I prefer (and will keep) being bad. That's an incredibly stupid reason, but it kind of keeps me away from the language. But it's also the fact that C++ still is very widespread and has tons of libraries. I wouldn't say never, of course. I'm looking forward to using Rust. Just not now.
- vezzy-fnord 11y ago
  I actually think that the scenario of Rust versus C++ is going to be quite interesting to see unravel, precisely because I don't think one is going to definitively weaken the other, but both be on their respective tails. This is because of the abnormally dramatic evolution C++ has seen over the past 5 years or so, and is hectically continuing. Though this has pretty much definitively made C++ too large for any single person, and there are some fundamental semantics that ensure Rust will always have the high ground in some areas, the lines related to functionality are getting blurrier.
- bitbckt 11y ago
  "Cue", not "queue". :)
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
"Programming languages never die" There have been literally thousands of programming languages over the years ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages ) and I can't imagine that more than a handful (which most people itt can name) have survived from the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
- steveklabnik 11y ago
  Maybe I should say "Programming languages that were used at wide scale never die." My "mojikun" brainfuck variant is certainly dead, but then again, it was never really 'alive' either.
- tbirdz 11y ago
  This may be a bit like hair-splitting, but the language doesn't die, only the implementation does. As long as the language was specified in enough detail, a new compiler could be written for it, and be able to compile the old source code in the language. There is an interesting parallel to natural human languages here as well, a language like Latin is considered dead because no one speaks it as a primary language, but humanity still has the ability to translate and understand Latin texts. The same applies to say Egyptian Heiroglyphics as well. In any case it's interesting to think about.

nulltype 11y ago

Spiritually it seems to be a replacement for C++. If you're using C++ for something, Rust seems like a well-thought-out C++. If you're using C for something, then probably not, for the same reasons you are not using C++.

pcwalton 11y ago
If you're using C and encountering memory safety problems, however, then you may want to consider Rust. Moving to C++ from C offers a small safety benefit and a large expressiveness benefit at the cost of a very large complexity drawback. Moving to Rust from C, on the other hand, offers a large safety benefit and a large expressiveness benefit at the cost of a significant complexity drawback. (I think Rust as a language is less complex than C++, and the complexity of C/C++ undefined behavior rules completely vanishes in safe Rust.)
- dlanouette 11y ago
  Can you elaborate on what you mean by the "very large/significant complexity drawback"? From what I've seen (which is admittedly small) Rust is much less complex than either C or C++.
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    Rust is a larger language than C, though far smaller than C++. More importantly, with Rust you should expect to spend more of your time convincing the compiler that you've written correct code, which requires a reasonable understanding of Rust semantics. (The compiler makes that fairly easy, but it can still be a bit of a shock when you're staring at code that seems obviously correct to you but the compiler has no way to know that.) On the other hand, once you do convince the compiler, you have an excellent chance that the code actually is correct, and you'll spend far less time chasing down crazy runtime bugs.
    - selestify 11y ago
      > On the other hand, once you do convince the compiler, you have an excellent chance that the code actually is correct, and you'll spend far less time chasing down crazy runtime bugs. That's what I love about Haskell as well. Know of any other languages like this?

kibwen 11y ago

Rust is suitable for a great deal of what C is used for (extending higher-level languages, writing language-agnostic libraries, embedded development, etc.) but Rust will likely never support as wide a variety of obscure platforms as C does. That said, Rust already supports Linux, OS X, Windows, and Android as first-class citizens, and support for FreeBSD, iOS, PSP, and lots of embedded and ARM platforms is currently provided by the community.

spike021 11y ago
PSP?
- kibwen 11y ago
  https://fnordig.de/2014/12/03/a-story-of-hacking-or-rust-on-the-psp/ https://fnordig.de/2014/12/03/a-story-of-hacking-or-rust-on-...
  - spike021 11y ago
    That's pretty cool! I haven't been in on the PSP "scene" in years. Nice to see things are still going on there.
- mtinkerhess 11y ago
  PlayStation Portable, the predecessor to the PS Vita.
  - spike021 11y ago
    Yeah. Wasn't sure if that's what the abbreviation was for. I miss hacking and making PSP homebrew.
masklinn 11y ago
And C remains the linga franca of FFIs so that's there to stay.
- 11y ago