4 ms·

Heh. When I saw the title, my first thought was Srsly? An article on HN about Gringotts!? (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_in_Harry_Potter#Economy htt

Heh. When I saw the title, my first thought was Srsly? An article on HN about Gringotts!? (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_in_Harry_Potter#Economy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_in_Harry_Potter#Economy)

patio11 17y ago
I love Harry Potter, but somebody needs to explain to me how e.g. the Weasleys experience material privation by Muggle standards with regards to things like not being able to afford clothes when both Weasley parents and, for most of the series, most of their children are all capable of conjuring valuable things (including clothes) from the ether. Or how Harry is rich like a king due to his inheritance despite his parents having no detectable business or reason for excessive wealth (well, aside from their prodigious abilities at conjuring valuable things from the ether). Or how Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic, both of which are shown as having truly prodigious amounts of wealth expended in their construction and upkeep, are sustained via contributions from a parallel economy where the level of economic sophistication has not exceeded "a one-room store attended by an artisan", except for (apparently) multinational corporations, branding campaigns, and market sophistication in... quidditch broomsticks. Economics is a real spoilsport for fantasy literature. I was once taught a single sentence which now nags at me in every book I read: "Describe how this army is fed." For example, the carnivorous Canim in the Furies of Calderon series fielded an army of some 60,000 apex predators in a sparsely populated agricultural region for a period of over two years. Their purchasing agent should require about as many sources of meat as all the McDonalds nationwide, but the economy as depicted couldn't possibly support that.
- wmf 17y ago
  Have you tried the Merchant Princes? It may contain the only sci-fantasy book with a cover quote from an economist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross#Merchant_Princes_series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross#Merchant_Princes...
  - patio11 17y ago
    I haven't, but if it is available on my Kindle, you deserve an affiliate commission.
    - patio11 17y ago
      I am going to print out this thread and send it to the publisher: "Due to copyright restrictions, certain Kindle Titles are not available everywhere. If the country or region displayed is incorrect, you may change it by clicking "Change region"." I could circumvent that via using my US proxy or wait until I go back for Christmas, but I really wanted a book to read on the plane ride tomorrow. And you know? Screw it. I'm going to buy from one of the numerous publishers who is willing to take the money I am attempting to throw at them.
- jeromec 17y ago
  Harry Potter expert here. Responding to your first question about poverty, there are some limiting factors on conjuring. First, although items appear to come from nowhere, they actually are likely to come from somewhere. For example, the feast appears magically on the Great Hall tables, but it comes from the kitchens below after being prepared by house elves. When things vanish, they also likely go somewhere else (remember the vanishing cabinet). Many things are transfigured (transformed) by starting first with a subject, like turning beetles into buttons, and some effects wear off (a lot of magic is non-permanent), so here it would make more sense to use actual buttons for clothing. The second limiting factor is skill level of the witch/wizard, as many possess expertise in one area, but not others (even Dumbledore being magically expert in many areas is not an alchemist, for example). This helps explain why places like Hogwarts and the Ministry are elaborate; witches and wizards of many skill levels and abilities worked together crossing spells for added conjuring complexity as well as durability from the magic wearing off. As for Harry's parents having money, they were a highly skilled witch and wizard husband/wife team. Just as in the muggle world, as with a smart husband and wife tandem (think the Obamas), they would do well economically. Harry's money is riches for a single kid financing a few school years, not necessarily a king's sum meaning he is set for life.
  - rortian 17y ago
    Not an alchemist? Did you forget about the Socerer's Stone? How could a non-alchemist discover that many uses for dragon's blood? Harry's parents are mysterious figures and I would guess that their wealth (or his rather) was more inherited than from being a highly skilled witch wizard team. He did inherit the invisibility cloak.
    - jeromec 17y ago
      When I say not an alchemist, I mean to the degree of Nicholas Flamel who was the only known maker of the Sorcerer's Stone. Many people know math well, but don't call themselves mathematicians. I agree some of the wealth could have been inherited (on the Potter side), but being highly clever, Harry's parents certainly had earning potential as well.
  - 17y ago
- Retric 17y ago
  Mostly I agree with you but I think Calderon dealt with this more than most. Baggage trains where frequent plot devices and resource management was portrayed as an important mostly discussed off screen. Southern taxes supporting the shield wall. The Canim also had significantly more than 60,000 people, they had ~60,000 warriors and a few hundred thousand "people" because they sent a full slice of society across the ocean. They also took over a huge land area including at least one large city, several coastal towns, and a huge area in between which was something like a months march across. Something like (10 * 30) ^2 = 90,000 square miles is plenty of area for an army that size. Also, they did not appear to be limited to meat.
- sethg 17y ago
  Bellisario’s Maxim: “Don’t examine this too closely.” http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim
- sketerpot 17y ago
  Something I've always appreciated about Lord of the Rings is that it actually took time off from the story to tell you how the army of Mordor is fed. Apparently they have absolutely enormous amounts of farmland by lake Nurnen in southeast Mordor.
- __ 17y ago
  Economic realism would do more than just satisfy the nitpicking nerds, too. It would have real artistic value in the form of more verisimilitude in the setting and social atmosphere. I suspect it would affect even economically illiterate readers/viewers, if only on a subconscious level. For example, something that bugged me about the re-imagined "Battlestar Galatica" series was that a group of only 38,000 survivors, apparently with no more automation technology than the real world, and under constant military threat, have a humming specialized economy. It includes arms manufacturing, ore processing, and even illegal niche industries like child prostitution. It can do these things in addition to maintaining and operating a fleet of sophisticated spacecraft, running intensive military operations, and feeding, clothing, and sheltering everyone. It usually feels more like a population of half a million than 38,000. But some of the episodes feature shortages of labor or resources, and I like it when this happens. It seems more real. It's easier to empathize with the characters because I can better feel the bleakness of their situation and their challenges seem less contrived.
  - gaius 17y ago
    Those sorts of constraints are what sets hard sci-fi apart from space opera. And in the hands of a skilled writer, economic and technological constraints are powerful tools for storytelling. In Star Trek how does Starfleet know how many starships it can build!?
- omnipath 17y ago
  For the same reason why many people in the world experience material privation: not enough time/talent to do it themselves. If you had enough time, effort, skill, and raw material, why would you ever need to buy clothes from the GAP, mass produced food from Safeway, or entertainment from BestBuy? Certainly, it would be cheaper and healthier to make your own food. But do you really want to spend all your time making stuff, when, overall, it would distract from what you really want to be doing with your life? In terms of Harry Potter, there is a law of conservation occurring there. Many things 'conjured' there does not last very long, and even to get them into existence requires energy from the summoner. In fact, it specifically mentions in the last book, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Hermoine states a conservation law about why wizards can't conjure food. (Don't remember which one.) I hope this answers your question.
- trevelyan 17y ago
  This is quite a nice short story if you haven't read it. The Cambist and Lord Iron: http://issuu.com/spectra/docs/cambistandlordiron http://issuu.com/spectra/docs/cambistandlordiron

patio11 17y ago

I love Harry Potter, but somebody needs to explain to me how e.g. the Weasleys experience material privation by Muggle standards with regards to things like not being able to afford clothes when both Weasley parents and, for most of the series, most of their children are all capable of conjuring valuable things (including clothes) from the ether. Or how Harry is rich like a king due to his inheritance despite his parents having no detectable business or reason for excessive wealth (well, aside from their prodigious abilities at conjuring valuable things from the ether). Or how Hogwarts and the Ministry of Magic, both of which are shown as having truly prodigious amounts of wealth expended in their construction and upkeep, are sustained via contributions from a parallel economy where the level of economic sophistication has not exceeded "a one-room store attended by an artisan", except for (apparently) multinational corporations, branding campaigns, and market sophistication in... quidditch broomsticks. Economics is a real spoilsport for fantasy literature. I was once taught a single sentence which now nags at me in every book I read: "Describe how this army is fed." For example, the carnivorous Canim in the Furies of Calderon series fielded an army of some 60,000 apex predators in a sparsely populated agricultural region for a period of over two years. Their purchasing agent should require about as many sources of meat as all the McDonalds nationwide, but the economy as depicted couldn't possibly support that.

wmf 17y ago
Have you tried the Merchant Princes? It may contain the only sci-fantasy book with a cover quote from an economist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross#Merchant_Princes_series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross#Merchant_Princes...
- patio11 17y ago
  I haven't, but if it is available on my Kindle, you deserve an affiliate commission.
  - patio11 17y ago
    I am going to print out this thread and send it to the publisher: "Due to copyright restrictions, certain Kindle Titles are not available everywhere. If the country or region displayed is incorrect, you may change it by clicking "Change region"." I could circumvent that via using my US proxy or wait until I go back for Christmas, but I really wanted a book to read on the plane ride tomorrow. And you know? Screw it. I'm going to buy from one of the numerous publishers who is willing to take the money I am attempting to throw at them.
jeromec 17y ago
Harry Potter expert here. Responding to your first question about poverty, there are some limiting factors on conjuring. First, although items appear to come from nowhere, they actually are likely to come from somewhere. For example, the feast appears magically on the Great Hall tables, but it comes from the kitchens below after being prepared by house elves. When things vanish, they also likely go somewhere else (remember the vanishing cabinet). Many things are transfigured (transformed) by starting first with a subject, like turning beetles into buttons, and some effects wear off (a lot of magic is non-permanent), so here it would make more sense to use actual buttons for clothing. The second limiting factor is skill level of the witch/wizard, as many possess expertise in one area, but not others (even Dumbledore being magically expert in many areas is not an alchemist, for example). This helps explain why places like Hogwarts and the Ministry are elaborate; witches and wizards of many skill levels and abilities worked together crossing spells for added conjuring complexity as well as durability from the magic wearing off. As for Harry's parents having money, they were a highly skilled witch and wizard husband/wife team. Just as in the muggle world, as with a smart husband and wife tandem (think the Obamas), they would do well economically. Harry's money is riches for a single kid financing a few school years, not necessarily a king's sum meaning he is set for life.
- rortian 17y ago
  Not an alchemist? Did you forget about the Socerer's Stone? How could a non-alchemist discover that many uses for dragon's blood? Harry's parents are mysterious figures and I would guess that their wealth (or his rather) was more inherited than from being a highly skilled witch wizard team. He did inherit the invisibility cloak.
  - jeromec 17y ago
    When I say not an alchemist, I mean to the degree of Nicholas Flamel who was the only known maker of the Sorcerer's Stone. Many people know math well, but don't call themselves mathematicians. I agree some of the wealth could have been inherited (on the Potter side), but being highly clever, Harry's parents certainly had earning potential as well.
- 17y ago
Retric 17y ago
Mostly I agree with you but I think Calderon dealt with this more than most. Baggage trains where frequent plot devices and resource management was portrayed as an important mostly discussed off screen. Southern taxes supporting the shield wall. The Canim also had significantly more than 60,000 people, they had ~60,000 warriors and a few hundred thousand "people" because they sent a full slice of society across the ocean. They also took over a huge land area including at least one large city, several coastal towns, and a huge area in between which was something like a months march across. Something like (10 * 30) ^2 = 90,000 square miles is plenty of area for an army that size. Also, they did not appear to be limited to meat.
sethg 17y ago
Bellisario’s Maxim: “Don’t examine this too closely.” http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BellisariosMaxim
sketerpot 17y ago
Something I've always appreciated about Lord of the Rings is that it actually took time off from the story to tell you how the army of Mordor is fed. Apparently they have absolutely enormous amounts of farmland by lake Nurnen in southeast Mordor.
__ 17y ago
Economic realism would do more than just satisfy the nitpicking nerds, too. It would have real artistic value in the form of more verisimilitude in the setting and social atmosphere. I suspect it would affect even economically illiterate readers/viewers, if only on a subconscious level. For example, something that bugged me about the re-imagined "Battlestar Galatica" series was that a group of only 38,000 survivors, apparently with no more automation technology than the real world, and under constant military threat, have a humming specialized economy. It includes arms manufacturing, ore processing, and even illegal niche industries like child prostitution. It can do these things in addition to maintaining and operating a fleet of sophisticated spacecraft, running intensive military operations, and feeding, clothing, and sheltering everyone. It usually feels more like a population of half a million than 38,000. But some of the episodes feature shortages of labor or resources, and I like it when this happens. It seems more real. It's easier to empathize with the characters because I can better feel the bleakness of their situation and their challenges seem less contrived.
- gaius 17y ago
  Those sorts of constraints are what sets hard sci-fi apart from space opera. And in the hands of a skilled writer, economic and technological constraints are powerful tools for storytelling. In Star Trek how does Starfleet know how many starships it can build!?
omnipath 17y ago
For the same reason why many people in the world experience material privation: not enough time/talent to do it themselves. If you had enough time, effort, skill, and raw material, why would you ever need to buy clothes from the GAP, mass produced food from Safeway, or entertainment from BestBuy? Certainly, it would be cheaper and healthier to make your own food. But do you really want to spend all your time making stuff, when, overall, it would distract from what you really want to be doing with your life? In terms of Harry Potter, there is a law of conservation occurring there. Many things 'conjured' there does not last very long, and even to get them into existence requires energy from the summoner. In fact, it specifically mentions in the last book, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Hermoine states a conservation law about why wizards can't conjure food. (Don't remember which one.) I hope this answers your question.
trevelyan 17y ago
This is quite a nice short story if you haven't read it. The Cambist and Lord Iron: http://issuu.com/spectra/docs/cambistandlordiron http://issuu.com/spectra/docs/cambistandlordiron