8 ms·

An Oakland shooting reveals how cops snoop on cell phones

105 points by anamexis 11y ago

paulmd 11y ago
What is "CRUM ADV LOCK ON PHONE"?
- imroot 11y ago
  I believe it's "(person's name) Advises a lock on (the) phone (signal)."
jonpaine 11y ago
An interesting side-effect of the scale and efficiency of current tech is this phenomenon of deploy first, ask questions later. Ideas and tools can be conceived, developed, deployed and adopted before a (state-sanctioned) response can be formed. Significant results (and value) can be reaped in the inherent lag between deployment/discovery and responsive-legislation. In tech, we've seen it recently as startups deploy faster than labor laws can (re)define boundaries. In government, when it's the police doing the rapid deployment... well, it's kind of uncharted territory. Has anyone modeled a system of checks and balances where one of the three processes has an n month setTimeout() before it can respond to inputs from another? Where does the system find equilibrium?
gleenn 11y ago
This is the first time I've heard of a pen register, apparently somewhat broad, modern parlance for things that capture phone data. It seems pretty damning that they spent the time to fax MetroPCS but couldn't, ya know, even get the pen register or ask a judge to ask if they thought it was a good idea. Maybe the bad guys are really bad, but sometimes I hope that they get off just to make the point that the cops are suppose to do the "right thing", otherwise the cops really are the bad guys.
- dbarlett 11y ago
  The term dates back to 19th-century telegraphy [1]. 18 U.S. Code § 3127 [2] defines them specifically: the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business; [1] https://nerdsincourt.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/on-prism-smith-and-pen-registers/ https://nerdsincourt.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/on-prism-smith... [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3127 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3127
- fluidcruft 11y ago
  > Maybe the bad guys are really bad, but sometimes I hope that they get off just to make the point that the cops are suppose to do the "right thing", otherwise the cops really are the bad guys The US way is to exclude evidence and protect the cops--the idea being that cops have no motive to cross lines if they can't use the evidence. More and more I'm leaning towards what I understand is the European way: let the evidence stand, but hold the cops accountable for their actions through parallel civil and criminal proceedings. The feedback for "cop behavior" is direct vs indirect.
  - baseballmerpeak 11y ago
    Let unconstitutionally acquired exidence stand? No, let's not let the abuses of a government stand, as we should also go after its agents.
    - afarrell 11y ago
      But this is in fact what we do http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1585 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1585
ggreer 11y ago
If three armed gang members are on the run after shooting someone, and an informant names some suspects, looking up the location of the suspects' phones seems acceptable to me. I have no doubt that stingrays are abused, but this specific instance, even if not legal, is ethical. That said, I do have issues with the OPD's incompetence and the prosecution's attempt at a cover-up. Seriously, why did the officer put himself in such a dangerous situation? Have the same prosecutors hidden evidence from the defense in the past? I'd love to get answers to those questions.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  There's no reason to think they're on a rampage or anything. There was no threat of a future crime. So why is it ethical to throw out all the checks and balances? There's no good moral or ethical argument I can see, you're just hand waving because you feel like they deserve to get caught. The police department was obviously just embarrassed that service weapons had been stolen.
  - ggreer 11y ago
    > There was no threat of a future crime. If there is any circumstance in which someone is likely to commit future crimes, it's probably after shooting a cop and taking their gun. At that point, the punishment is so bad that additional crimes are a rounding error. If carjacking or robbery can decrease your chances of getting caught, they're worth doing. Ditto for destroying evidence. It's fortunate that none of these things happened, but they all too easily could have. > So why is it ethical to throw out all the checks and balances? I never said that. I live in Oakland. I know my phone could be targeted. I'm completely in favor of checks and balances. I'm simply looking at the specifics of this case: Someone is accosted, beaten, and shot by armed gang members. An informant names some suspects. Is it ethical to look up the location of their phones? I'm pretty sure it is. If you disagree, I'd love to hear where you'd draw the line for stinger use. > The police department was obviously just embarrassed that service weapons had been stolen. That was a factor, but it was minor. The main reason for the OPD's ridiculous overreaction was that one of their own had been shot. That's what I wish had been the focus of this story: Poor training (and possibly corruption) causing public servants to do a bad job.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Trektillian 11y ago
mitnick testified in 1992 or so that cops could track people like this. they labeled him as a conspiracy nut. but he was right fwiw those "nuts" they call people like him and me is a testicular reference, as in "has nuts". /rant

105 points by anamexis 11y ago

paulmd 11y ago

What is "CRUM ADV LOCK ON PHONE"?

imroot 11y ago
I believe it's "(person's name) Advises a lock on (the) phone (signal)."

jonpaine 11y ago

An interesting side-effect of the scale and efficiency of current tech is this phenomenon of deploy first, ask questions later. Ideas and tools can be conceived, developed, deployed and adopted before a (state-sanctioned) response can be formed. Significant results (and value) can be reaped in the inherent lag between deployment/discovery and responsive-legislation. In tech, we've seen it recently as startups deploy faster than labor laws can (re)define boundaries. In government, when it's the police doing the rapid deployment... well, it's kind of uncharted territory. Has anyone modeled a system of checks and balances where one of the three processes has an n month setTimeout() before it can respond to inputs from another? Where does the system find equilibrium?

gleenn 11y ago

This is the first time I've heard of a pen register, apparently somewhat broad, modern parlance for things that capture phone data. It seems pretty damning that they spent the time to fax MetroPCS but couldn't, ya know, even get the pen register or ask a judge to ask if they thought it was a good idea. Maybe the bad guys are really bad, but sometimes I hope that they get off just to make the point that the cops are suppose to do the "right thing", otherwise the cops really are the bad guys.

dbarlett 11y ago
The term dates back to 19th-century telegraphy [1]. 18 U.S. Code § 3127 [2] defines them specifically: the term “pen register” means a device or process which records or decodes dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted, provided, however, that such information shall not include the contents of any communication, but such term does not include any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire or electronic communication service for billing, or recording as an incident to billing, for communications services provided by such provider or any device or process used by a provider or customer of a wire communication service for cost accounting or other like purposes in the ordinary course of its business; [1] https://nerdsincourt.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/on-prism-smith-and-pen-registers/ https://nerdsincourt.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/on-prism-smith... [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3127 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3127
fluidcruft 11y ago
> Maybe the bad guys are really bad, but sometimes I hope that they get off just to make the point that the cops are suppose to do the "right thing", otherwise the cops really are the bad guys The US way is to exclude evidence and protect the cops--the idea being that cops have no motive to cross lines if they can't use the evidence. More and more I'm leaning towards what I understand is the European way: let the evidence stand, but hold the cops accountable for their actions through parallel civil and criminal proceedings. The feedback for "cop behavior" is direct vs indirect.
- baseballmerpeak 11y ago
  Let unconstitutionally acquired exidence stand? No, let's not let the abuses of a government stand, as we should also go after its agents.
  - afarrell 11y ago
    But this is in fact what we do http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1585 http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1585

ggreer 11y ago

If three armed gang members are on the run after shooting someone, and an informant names some suspects, looking up the location of the suspects' phones seems acceptable to me. I have no doubt that stingrays are abused, but this specific instance, even if not legal, is ethical. That said, I do have issues with the OPD's incompetence and the prosecution's attempt at a cover-up. Seriously, why did the officer put himself in such a dangerous situation? Have the same prosecutors hidden evidence from the defense in the past? I'd love to get answers to those questions.

mattmanser 11y ago
There's no reason to think they're on a rampage or anything. There was no threat of a future crime. So why is it ethical to throw out all the checks and balances? There's no good moral or ethical argument I can see, you're just hand waving because you feel like they deserve to get caught. The police department was obviously just embarrassed that service weapons had been stolen.
- ggreer 11y ago
  > There was no threat of a future crime. If there is any circumstance in which someone is likely to commit future crimes, it's probably after shooting a cop and taking their gun. At that point, the punishment is so bad that additional crimes are a rounding error. If carjacking or robbery can decrease your chances of getting caught, they're worth doing. Ditto for destroying evidence. It's fortunate that none of these things happened, but they all too easily could have. > So why is it ethical to throw out all the checks and balances? I never said that. I live in Oakland. I know my phone could be targeted. I'm completely in favor of checks and balances. I'm simply looking at the specifics of this case: Someone is accosted, beaten, and shot by armed gang members. An informant names some suspects. Is it ethical to look up the location of their phones? I'm pretty sure it is. If you disagree, I'd love to hear where you'd draw the line for stinger use. > The police department was obviously just embarrassed that service weapons had been stolen. That was a factor, but it was minor. The main reason for the OPD's ridiculous overreaction was that one of their own had been shot. That's what I wish had been the focus of this story: Poor training (and possibly corruption) causing public servants to do a bad job.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

Trektillian 11y ago

mitnick testified in 1992 or so that cops could track people like this. they labeled him as a conspiracy nut. but he was right fwiw those "nuts" they call people like him and me is a testicular reference, as in "has nuts". /rant