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"Tips," as you seem to classify everything from Kickstarter to Patronage to Patreon, and fan interaction are the most reasonable means by which an artist might

"Tips," as you seem to classify everything from Kickstarter to Patronage to Patreon, and fan interaction are the most reasonable means by which an artist might derive a living. Artists who can't derive a living by these means should look into alternate means of making a living. Success as an artist is not an entitlement. Creative people who make creative works will succeed in proportion to their ability to be valued by society or a subset of it, not because society can correctly identify any objective or intrinsic value in any particular creative work. It's also not comparable to the "wealthy engineers" you malign. If engineers worked under the same terms as modern copyright never a road or bridge or factory would be built because the next hundred years of paying royalties to all the engineers on top of construction costs would make it impossible to build anything. Frankly, most engineers give up the rights to their creative works in order to be employed at all and recognize that they can't expect to make a living for their entire life just by designing one awesome bridge or skyscraper.

sosborn 11y ago
> Success as an artist is not an entitlement. Neither is unlimited access to a person's artistic creation.
- Nadya 11y ago
  Which contributes to their success through free marketing and word-of-mouth. "Who are you listening to?" is a common question people ask when they hear music they like that someone else is listening to. Which, if they hadn't pirated that persons music they might not be listening to and the answer would be a different artist. From an economic sense I've never understood trying to prevent piracy. I can understand not encouraging it or even encouraging buying the product but not acting like piracy is a heinous crime that robs them. My favorite example is illegal anime fansubs that open up an entire foreign market to something they otherwise would not participate in. From purchasing merchandise (figurines, dakimakuras, DVD's, soundtracks, etc.) to telling their friends about the anime. It's business that these studios would otherwise not get and so many fansub groups are tolerated or even hired as official translators for studios. This sort of black/white standpoints on piracy do more harm to both sides in many cases...people shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand that potentially free marketing brings in more money than the imaginary "lost sale" (who says the person who pirated would even buy your product to begin with?)
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    From purchasing merchandise (figurines, dakimakuras, DVD's, soundtracks, etc.) to telling their friends about the anime. What you're missing is that those things only exist for purchase because someone invested capital in their production, and you only learn about the original media because money was spent on marketing in its home territory. If all you have is the IP and no capital, which is the position that most authors are in, then you can't easily cash in on the merchandising possibilities or purchase the marketing resources to focus public attention on your product at scale. people shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand that potentially free marketing brings in more money than the imaginary "lost sale" Have you ever tried to sell a creative product? Maybe you should. The reality is that 'potentially free marketing' is a terrible bootstrap strategy for many creative products. If your only marketing option is to give it away free then the signal you are sending to the market is that 'this work has no value' and so nobody is inclined to pay for it. Piracy across market boundaries (like anime) only works because there is already a perception of value for the product - you want something that people in another market can easily buy but which you can't. They can easily buy it because someone invested in distribution and marketing. Look, if you sat down, learned to draw, and made your own anime book and put it up on the internet for free without caring about copyright, do you think money just comes rolling in? It won't, even if it's good and popular. If you ignore copyright that someone else who does have capital sitting idle will just start producing and selling merchandise and they won't give you any of the money.
    - Nadya 11y ago
      >What you're missing is that those things only exist for purchase because someone invested capital in their production True. Most of the time at least. This is assuming it isn't some indie project, but for the most part I'll agree and say it is true. >you only learn about the original media because money was spent on marketing in its home territory. I hate to enter a semantic debate but I don't consider announcements to be marketing, although I can understand how one could interpret them as such. People learn about the original media through the fansub groups who learn about the product through announcements of upcoming works from the studios and/or the native TV rippers (I forget their actual name). Only a small, niche market of foreigners who happen to also speak Japanese hear about it from marketing in the home territory. There are fangroups who, at the start of each season, compile the upcoming works from each studio. That is all the marketing that most of the pirating consumers get - and none of it is from marketing the product in Japan. >If all you have is the IP and no capital, which is the position that most authors are in, then you can't easily cash in on the merchandising possibilities or purchase the marketing resources to focus public attention on your product at scale. Which is why free advertisement from pirates is a benefit. Which is part of what I'm getting at...then there's the entire doujinshi market which runs counter to this claim. Many doujinshi artists become very popular because of a single sale that is then scanned and distributed to people who then pirate the work. The artist can gain a lot of popularity through this pirating of their work, which results in more sales in the future. >Have you ever tried to sell a creative product? Maybe you should. I have. > The reality is that 'potentially free marketing' is a terrible bootstrap strategy for many creative products. I already replied to this. >I can understand not encouraging it or even encouraging buying the product but not acting like piracy is a heinous crime that robs them. >If your only marketing option is to give it away free Nowhere did I say that. >Look, if you sat down, learned to draw, and made your own anime book and put it up on the internet for free without caring about copyright, do you think money just comes rolling in? It won't, even if it's good and popular. Ignoring your bad assumptions, do you think an artist would make money if their initial marketing, at some level, wasn't free? How many artists would make sales without a portfolio or free display of their work? How many musicians would get signed to a label without an EP?
- imgabe 11y ago
  It's not an entitlement, it is an unavoidable consequence of digital replication.
anigbrowl 11y ago
Artists who can't derive a living by these means should look into alternate means of making a living. Success as an artist is not an entitlement. Creative people who make creative works will succeed in proportion to their ability to be valued by society or a subset of it, not because society can correctly identify any objective or intrinsic value in any particular creative work. In other words success is correlated with successful marketing rather than any intrinsic value of the work. So even if the work is great and popular, authors of said works hould not be allowed to have an economic interest in its distribution. It's also not comparable to the "wealthy engineers" you malign. If engineers worked under the same terms as modern copyright never a road or bridge or factory would be built because the next hundred years of paying royalties to all the engineers on top of construction costs would make it impossible to build anything. Utter, unmitigated bullshit. You're saying that there is really no such thing as original work, which is patently untrue.
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  Utter, unmitigated bullshit. You're saying that there is really no such thing as original work, which is patently untrue. Name one story in modern movies that doesn't follow at least part of commonly identified narratives. Name one painting that doesn't follow some common themes (Madonna and child comes to mind). Name one written work that doesn't have some intertextual references. Hell, name one superhero that isn't a knock off of another. If you can't then will you admit that everyone borrows ideas from everyone else?

sosborn 11y ago

> Success as an artist is not an entitlement. Neither is unlimited access to a person's artistic creation.

Nadya 11y ago
Which contributes to their success through free marketing and word-of-mouth. "Who are you listening to?" is a common question people ask when they hear music they like that someone else is listening to. Which, if they hadn't pirated that persons music they might not be listening to and the answer would be a different artist. From an economic sense I've never understood trying to prevent piracy. I can understand not encouraging it or even encouraging buying the product but not acting like piracy is a heinous crime that robs them. My favorite example is illegal anime fansubs that open up an entire foreign market to something they otherwise would not participate in. From purchasing merchandise (figurines, dakimakuras, DVD's, soundtracks, etc.) to telling their friends about the anime. It's business that these studios would otherwise not get and so many fansub groups are tolerated or even hired as official translators for studios. This sort of black/white standpoints on piracy do more harm to both sides in many cases...people shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand that potentially free marketing brings in more money than the imaginary "lost sale" (who says the person who pirated would even buy your product to begin with?)
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  From purchasing merchandise (figurines, dakimakuras, DVD's, soundtracks, etc.) to telling their friends about the anime. What you're missing is that those things only exist for purchase because someone invested capital in their production, and you only learn about the original media because money was spent on marketing in its home territory. If all you have is the IP and no capital, which is the position that most authors are in, then you can't easily cash in on the merchandising possibilities or purchase the marketing resources to focus public attention on your product at scale. people shooting themselves in the foot because they don't understand that potentially free marketing brings in more money than the imaginary "lost sale" Have you ever tried to sell a creative product? Maybe you should. The reality is that 'potentially free marketing' is a terrible bootstrap strategy for many creative products. If your only marketing option is to give it away free then the signal you are sending to the market is that 'this work has no value' and so nobody is inclined to pay for it. Piracy across market boundaries (like anime) only works because there is already a perception of value for the product - you want something that people in another market can easily buy but which you can't. They can easily buy it because someone invested in distribution and marketing. Look, if you sat down, learned to draw, and made your own anime book and put it up on the internet for free without caring about copyright, do you think money just comes rolling in? It won't, even if it's good and popular. If you ignore copyright that someone else who does have capital sitting idle will just start producing and selling merchandise and they won't give you any of the money.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    >What you're missing is that those things only exist for purchase because someone invested capital in their production True. Most of the time at least. This is assuming it isn't some indie project, but for the most part I'll agree and say it is true. >you only learn about the original media because money was spent on marketing in its home territory. I hate to enter a semantic debate but I don't consider announcements to be marketing, although I can understand how one could interpret them as such. People learn about the original media through the fansub groups who learn about the product through announcements of upcoming works from the studios and/or the native TV rippers (I forget their actual name). Only a small, niche market of foreigners who happen to also speak Japanese hear about it from marketing in the home territory. There are fangroups who, at the start of each season, compile the upcoming works from each studio. That is all the marketing that most of the pirating consumers get - and none of it is from marketing the product in Japan. >If all you have is the IP and no capital, which is the position that most authors are in, then you can't easily cash in on the merchandising possibilities or purchase the marketing resources to focus public attention on your product at scale. Which is why free advertisement from pirates is a benefit. Which is part of what I'm getting at...then there's the entire doujinshi market which runs counter to this claim. Many doujinshi artists become very popular because of a single sale that is then scanned and distributed to people who then pirate the work. The artist can gain a lot of popularity through this pirating of their work, which results in more sales in the future. >Have you ever tried to sell a creative product? Maybe you should. I have. > The reality is that 'potentially free marketing' is a terrible bootstrap strategy for many creative products. I already replied to this. >I can understand not encouraging it or even encouraging buying the product but not acting like piracy is a heinous crime that robs them. >If your only marketing option is to give it away free Nowhere did I say that. >Look, if you sat down, learned to draw, and made your own anime book and put it up on the internet for free without caring about copyright, do you think money just comes rolling in? It won't, even if it's good and popular. Ignoring your bad assumptions, do you think an artist would make money if their initial marketing, at some level, wasn't free? How many artists would make sales without a portfolio or free display of their work? How many musicians would get signed to a label without an EP?
imgabe 11y ago
It's not an entitlement, it is an unavoidable consequence of digital replication.

anigbrowl 11y ago

Artists who can't derive a living by these means should look into alternate means of making a living. Success as an artist is not an entitlement. Creative people who make creative works will succeed in proportion to their ability to be valued by society or a subset of it, not because society can correctly identify any objective or intrinsic value in any particular creative work. In other words success is correlated with successful marketing rather than any intrinsic value of the work. So even if the work is great and popular, authors of said works hould not be allowed to have an economic interest in its distribution. It's also not comparable to the "wealthy engineers" you malign. If engineers worked under the same terms as modern copyright never a road or bridge or factory would be built because the next hundred years of paying royalties to all the engineers on top of construction costs would make it impossible to build anything. Utter, unmitigated bullshit. You're saying that there is really no such thing as original work, which is patently untrue.

norea-armozel 11y ago
Utter, unmitigated bullshit. You're saying that there is really no such thing as original work, which is patently untrue. Name one story in modern movies that doesn't follow at least part of commonly identified narratives. Name one painting that doesn't follow some common themes (Madonna and child comes to mind). Name one written work that doesn't have some intertextual references. Hell, name one superhero that isn't a knock off of another. If you can't then will you admit that everyone borrows ideas from everyone else?