4 ms·

sure, but it also cripples small businesses who don't really know any better. not every small-time merchant will have the wits about them to present legal thre

by noodle 17y ago

sure, but it also cripples small businesses who don't really know any better. not every small-time merchant will have the wits about them to present legal threats.

jrockway 17y ago
Dunno, a legal threat is the first thing that came to my mind. I don't see a situation where someone collects money from your customers and refuses to give it to you any different from someone walking into your home, smashing your piggy bank, and taking your money. The second case is obviously a crime, so it follows that the first is too. When you are a victim of a crime, negotiating with the criminal seems like a bad idea. Getting a lawyer (or the cops) involved seems like a good idea. So if I lost my "appeal" at PayPal, I would involve the real legal system, instead of their made up one. (OTOH, if the OP got all his money back, then he was not necessarily wronged. Banks can refuse to do business with companies they are unsure about.)
- noodle 17y ago
  it is also the first thing that came to my mind, but i'd argue that we (as are, likely, most people on HN) in the minority, being more knowledgeable about the legal, technical and business aspects of the situation than the average small business owner.
- ajross 17y ago
  Not to nit too much (because I think this is exactly the right thing to do) but threatening to sue someone isn't the same thing as accusing them of a crime. If someone is tried for larceny, the point is that they are punished by the state to deter future crimes. The goal is not to return the stolen property to the owner; that's what a civil suit is for. And indeed, in the business world this happens all the time. Companies delay and defer payments to each other all the time trying to maximize profits. The situation usually comes to equilibrium without court action (e.g. "pay me for the last shipment or you won't get the next"), but it's really common. "Payment up front" is a consumer thing. B2B transactions are a whole lot more complicated.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > So if I lost my "appeal" at PayPal, I would involve the real legal system, instead of their made up one. That's not really worth it though. Im smart enough [sic] to write a letter that sounds sufficiently legal and blustery for them to take notice. But taking real action costs a bomb... I felt a bit silly doing it but it was one of those "oh ffs" moments - I couldn't face another month of getting nowhere :) If they had called my bluff I would have backed down and tried another tack; but it occurred to me at the time that it might work, and was at least worth trying as a shortcut.
- prawn 17y ago
  What about a basic specialist company that represented people in these situations for a fee or percentage of the money being withheld? "Lawyer" sounds expensive and scary to many people, but if the pitch was very specific, people might go for it?

by noodle 17y ago

sure, but it also cripples small businesses who don't really know any better. not every small-time merchant will have the wits about them to present legal threats.

jrockway 17y ago

Dunno, a legal threat is the first thing that came to my mind. I don't see a situation where someone collects money from your customers and refuses to give it to you any different from someone walking into your home, smashing your piggy bank, and taking your money. The second case is obviously a crime, so it follows that the first is too. When you are a victim of a crime, negotiating with the criminal seems like a bad idea. Getting a lawyer (or the cops) involved seems like a good idea. So if I lost my "appeal" at PayPal, I would involve the real legal system, instead of their made up one. (OTOH, if the OP got all his money back, then he was not necessarily wronged. Banks can refuse to do business with companies they are unsure about.)

noodle 17y ago
it is also the first thing that came to my mind, but i'd argue that we (as are, likely, most people on HN) in the minority, being more knowledgeable about the legal, technical and business aspects of the situation than the average small business owner.
ajross 17y ago
Not to nit too much (because I think this is exactly the right thing to do) but threatening to sue someone isn't the same thing as accusing them of a crime. If someone is tried for larceny, the point is that they are punished by the state to deter future crimes. The goal is not to return the stolen property to the owner; that's what a civil suit is for. And indeed, in the business world this happens all the time. Companies delay and defer payments to each other all the time trying to maximize profits. The situation usually comes to equilibrium without court action (e.g. "pay me for the last shipment or you won't get the next"), but it's really common. "Payment up front" is a consumer thing. B2B transactions are a whole lot more complicated.
ErrantX 17y ago
> So if I lost my "appeal" at PayPal, I would involve the real legal system, instead of their made up one. That's not really worth it though. Im smart enough [sic] to write a letter that sounds sufficiently legal and blustery for them to take notice. But taking real action costs a bomb... I felt a bit silly doing it but it was one of those "oh ffs" moments - I couldn't face another month of getting nowhere :) If they had called my bluff I would have backed down and tried another tack; but it occurred to me at the time that it might work, and was at least worth trying as a shortcut.
prawn 17y ago
What about a basic specialist company that represented people in these situations for a fee or percentage of the money being withheld? "Lawyer" sounds expensive and scary to many people, but if the pitch was very specific, people might go for it?