6 ms·

The Kansas Experiment

35 points by lfowles 11y ago

Artistry121 11y ago
Kansas is a beautiful state but like most of the middle of the country its population spread, lack of "entrepreneurship-role-models" in most communities and talent flight hurt its chances of developing strong business culture even in an easy-to-do business environment. I grew up in KC, MO and went to school on the state line. Many of the most promising students from my school and other schools would go out of state for college - and most that left haven't come back yet. The fact that Denver, Kansas City, MO and Omaha all flank the state and contain more developed business centers also makes company development unlikely. Looking at this shows how little concentration there is of companies in the whole mid-to-upper Midwest section. http://www.geolounge.com/fortune-500-list-by-state-for-2015/ http://www.geolounge.com/fortune-500-list-by-state-for-2015/ I wonder what has made Minnesota so successful.
- abrowne 11y ago
  > The fact that Denver, Kansas City, MO and Omaha all flank the state and contain more developed business centers also makes company development unlikely. > I wonder what has made Minnesota so successful. These are related. Between Chicago and Seattle, for major metro areas, there's basically just Minneapolis. (Disclosure: Minneapolitan)
- kcmarshall 11y ago
  Here's a nice example of a regional success story from MN. The area around Winona (a town on the Mississippi river between the Twin Cities and Rochester) has a growing cluster of businesses that work with composites. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/07/composites-winona http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/07/composites-winona Kansas wants this kind of development but doesn't want to put priority on environmental protection, outdoor recreation or the arts. All are important to the Winona story - as is the presence of a state university in the town. I'm an 'expat' Kansan who now lives in MN so I have a deep appreciation for the difference between the two.
knieveltech 11y ago
Would someone in tune with the fiscally conservative mindset be willing to offer an explanation for the apparent fascination with cutting taxes and downsizing government? Specifically, what are the proposed benefits for the average citizen?
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  The answer is: "Who cares about the average citizen?"
- krschultz 11y ago
  More money in your pocket because your taxes are lower. It generally goes along with not seeing anything in your life that is a benefit from government.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Do conservatives not use roads, schools, police, fire, healthcare and other services? Taxes pay for civilization.
    - Artistry121 11y ago
      Roads in Texas and Florida are just as nice as in other states. The argument for fiscal conservatism, as noted in Kansas, isn't against all taxes or government spending - it's about using less money to provide certain services or not providing certain services. Moving from CA to TX as a highly paid person with no change in salary will result in a 13% direct increase in take-home pay. And my anecdotal experience is that I-35 is as well kept up as I-5 and toll-roads in Texas are more easily avoidable than those in Southern California.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Texas provides almost no services to its citizens, unless you only need roads. I would not use them as a shining example: "Despite having the highest birth rate, Texas has the worst rate of women with health insurance, and the worst rate of pregnant women receiving prenatal care in the first trimester, according to the report commissioned by the Legislative Study Group, a liberal-leaning research caucus in the Texas House. While Texas has the second-highest public school enrollment, the state ranks last in the percentage of people 25 and older with a high school diploma. And though Texas has the highest percent of its population without health insurance, the state is 49th in per capita spending on Medicaid, and dead last in per capita spending on mental health, according to the report. " http://web.archive.org/web/20150401050939/https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/14/texas-is-on-the-brink-legislative-study-group-says/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150401050939/https://www.texast... Disclaimer: My personal opinion is Texas is hell on Earth, Somalia if it had a southern flair. YMMV. (Except Austin)
rrmm 11y ago
The legislators' assumption was that lowering the tax rate (eventually to zero) would bring business to the state. Ignoring arguments about the validity and applicability of the Laffer curve, what made them think businesses would want to set up shop there when several other states have the same benefit? Businesses have to attract talent, and underfunding services and schools doesn't make for an attractive state. It is painful to watch how easily the people in charge slide into believing that one simple solution will fix everything. Even the best of ideas and intentions end badly when taken to an idealogical extreme.
- Artistry121 11y ago
  Your last sentence can really be true in a lot of circumstances. The overwhelming note of the article was that even at the end of the day practical concerns did override idealism. Although KS has a long way to go and has some huge disadvantages when compared to other states with no income tax - there is a possibility that a zero income tax policy could help the state.
- deleted 11y ago
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- deleted 11y ago
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- Lavery 11y ago
  Without going into whether this belief is well founded (personally I don't think it is), its a combination of two factors: an assumption that there is a pool of potential business owners already in the state who are deterred by higher taxes, and a desire to be like Delaware (or internationally, Ireland), where low taxes and favorable regulatory structure are such that many large, inter-state or multinational corporations headquarter themselves there. The first point, as you suggested, is pretty questionable. As you pointed out, it's worth noting that the current wave of entrepreneurship has headquartered itself in California, New York, and Massachusetts, some of the highest tax areas in the country.
  - WalterBright 11y ago
roneesh 11y ago
The single minded focus on taxes to recruit businesses strikes me as severely misguided. Sure, found a business here in Kansas where you save on paying high taxes on your business. Pay it all back when your child makes the mistake of enrolling in the University of Kansas system. Perhaps this isn't the specific case in Kansas, maybe the Kansas system has lowered costs, but I have a feeling you pay it back in some form when you finally, in some way start to imbibe on a now underfunded public entity.
- success_hawk 11y ago
  The University of Kansas has one of the lowest tuition prices in the country for a state uni. The problem is the overall education you get from the public schools and that there are very few locations to get job, when comparing pay nationally, with decent pay.
cromulent 11y ago
I listened to the Planet Money episode last week (of the same title and subject from last year). http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/22/358105415/episode-577-sam-brownback-s-kansas-experiment http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/22/358105415/episo...
norea-armozel 11y ago
I gave up on my home state barely a year ago. When I graduated from Wichita State there wasn't much in the way of actual software developer jobs in the city or even up north near Topeka. It was fairly depressing to have to accept a job out of state since despite all its flaws it's my home. But since I can't find real work back home and the fact it seems the state Republican party is hell bent to run out any business that doesn't follow its status quo (especially companies who are LGBT friendly/inclusive) I won't be coming back other than to bury my parents. Maybe someday I'll come back to my home state but only when the madness in the state capital has ran its course and actual competent politicians are at the helm. Until then I'll be working up here in Minneapolis Minnesota (even though I hate the traffic and the winter weather... BLEH!).

35 points by lfowles 11y ago

Kansas is a beautiful state but like most of the middle of the country its population spread, lack of "entrepreneurship-role-models" in most communities and talent flight hurt its chances of developing strong business culture even in an easy-to-do business environment. I grew up in KC, MO and went to school on the state line. Many of the most promising students from my school and other schools would go out of state for college - and most that left haven't come back yet. The fact that Denver, Kansas City, MO and Omaha all flank the state and contain more developed business centers also makes company development unlikely. Looking at this shows how little concentration there is of companies in the whole mid-to-upper Midwest section. http://www.geolounge.com/fortune-500-list-by-state-for-2015/ http://www.geolounge.com/fortune-500-list-by-state-for-2015/ I wonder what has made Minnesota so successful.

abrowne 11y ago
> The fact that Denver, Kansas City, MO and Omaha all flank the state and contain more developed business centers also makes company development unlikely. > I wonder what has made Minnesota so successful. These are related. Between Chicago and Seattle, for major metro areas, there's basically just Minneapolis. (Disclosure: Minneapolitan)
kcmarshall 11y ago
Here's a nice example of a regional success story from MN. The area around Winona (a town on the Mississippi river between the Twin Cities and Rochester) has a growing cluster of businesses that work with composites. http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/07/composites-winona http://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/08/07/composites-winona Kansas wants this kind of development but doesn't want to put priority on environmental protection, outdoor recreation or the arts. All are important to the Winona story - as is the presence of a state university in the town. I'm an 'expat' Kansan who now lives in MN so I have a deep appreciation for the difference between the two.

knieveltech 11y ago

Would someone in tune with the fiscally conservative mindset be willing to offer an explanation for the apparent fascination with cutting taxes and downsizing government? Specifically, what are the proposed benefits for the average citizen?

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
The answer is: "Who cares about the average citizen?"
krschultz 11y ago
More money in your pocket because your taxes are lower. It generally goes along with not seeing anything in your life that is a benefit from government.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Do conservatives not use roads, schools, police, fire, healthcare and other services? Taxes pay for civilization.
  - Artistry121 11y ago
    Roads in Texas and Florida are just as nice as in other states. The argument for fiscal conservatism, as noted in Kansas, isn't against all taxes or government spending - it's about using less money to provide certain services or not providing certain services. Moving from CA to TX as a highly paid person with no change in salary will result in a 13% direct increase in take-home pay. And my anecdotal experience is that I-35 is as well kept up as I-5 and toll-roads in Texas are more easily avoidable than those in Southern California.
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      Texas provides almost no services to its citizens, unless you only need roads. I would not use them as a shining example: "Despite having the highest birth rate, Texas has the worst rate of women with health insurance, and the worst rate of pregnant women receiving prenatal care in the first trimester, according to the report commissioned by the Legislative Study Group, a liberal-leaning research caucus in the Texas House. While Texas has the second-highest public school enrollment, the state ranks last in the percentage of people 25 and older with a high school diploma. And though Texas has the highest percent of its population without health insurance, the state is 49th in per capita spending on Medicaid, and dead last in per capita spending on mental health, according to the report. " http://web.archive.org/web/20150401050939/https://www.texastribune.org/2011/02/14/texas-is-on-the-brink-legislative-study-group-says/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150401050939/https://www.texast... Disclaimer: My personal opinion is Texas is hell on Earth, Somalia if it had a southern flair. YMMV. (Except Austin)

rrmm 11y ago

The legislators' assumption was that lowering the tax rate (eventually to zero) would bring business to the state. Ignoring arguments about the validity and applicability of the Laffer curve, what made them think businesses would want to set up shop there when several other states have the same benefit? Businesses have to attract talent, and underfunding services and schools doesn't make for an attractive state. It is painful to watch how easily the people in charge slide into believing that one simple solution will fix everything. Even the best of ideas and intentions end badly when taken to an idealogical extreme.

Artistry121 11y ago
Your last sentence can really be true in a lot of circumstances. The overwhelming note of the article was that even at the end of the day practical concerns did override idealism. Although KS has a long way to go and has some huge disadvantages when compared to other states with no income tax - there is a possibility that a zero income tax policy could help the state.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Lavery 11y ago
Without going into whether this belief is well founded (personally I don't think it is), its a combination of two factors: an assumption that there is a pool of potential business owners already in the state who are deterred by higher taxes, and a desire to be like Delaware (or internationally, Ireland), where low taxes and favorable regulatory structure are such that many large, inter-state or multinational corporations headquarter themselves there. The first point, as you suggested, is pretty questionable. As you pointed out, it's worth noting that the current wave of entrepreneurship has headquartered itself in California, New York, and Massachusetts, some of the highest tax areas in the country.
- WalterBright 11y ago

roneesh 11y ago

The single minded focus on taxes to recruit businesses strikes me as severely misguided. Sure, found a business here in Kansas where you save on paying high taxes on your business. Pay it all back when your child makes the mistake of enrolling in the University of Kansas system. Perhaps this isn't the specific case in Kansas, maybe the Kansas system has lowered costs, but I have a feeling you pay it back in some form when you finally, in some way start to imbibe on a now underfunded public entity.

success_hawk 11y ago
The University of Kansas has one of the lowest tuition prices in the country for a state uni. The problem is the overall education you get from the public schools and that there are very few locations to get job, when comparing pay nationally, with decent pay.

cromulent 11y ago

I listened to the Planet Money episode last week (of the same title and subject from last year). http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/22/358105415/episode-577-sam-brownback-s-kansas-experiment http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/22/358105415/episo...

norea-armozel 11y ago

I gave up on my home state barely a year ago. When I graduated from Wichita State there wasn't much in the way of actual software developer jobs in the city or even up north near Topeka. It was fairly depressing to have to accept a job out of state since despite all its flaws it's my home. But since I can't find real work back home and the fact it seems the state Republican party is hell bent to run out any business that doesn't follow its status quo (especially companies who are LGBT friendly/inclusive) I won't be coming back other than to bury my parents. Maybe someday I'll come back to my home state but only when the madness in the state capital has ran its course and actual competent politicians are at the helm. Until then I'll be working up here in Minneapolis Minnesota (even though I hate the traffic and the winter weather... BLEH!).