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Reddit has this strange power inversion dynamic where the users think they are entitled to run the site. It's a complete illusion they have for themselves to f

by seiji 11y ago

Reddit has this strange power inversion dynamic where the users think they are entitled to run the site. It's a complete illusion they have for themselves to feel more special. Reddit is a billion dollar company and unless you are in corporate management, you have no say. You can have opinions and attempt to have influence, but you have no flat out rights unless you are a decision maker at the corporation. Reddit is actually 5 things: the software platform, a global hosted instance of the software platform, engineering to improve the software platform, operations to maintain the global hosted software platform, and managament/moderation/"admin"/peopleing of the global hosted instance of the software platform. "prommie" users of Reddit think, because they use the global hosted instance of the software platform, they have skin in the game for all other issues as well. If that is actually true, you aren't a "company," you're a weird democratic-socialist commune. Companies must make difficult and annoying and sometimes flat out wrong decisions in order to survive, and you can't be answerable to a million mostly anonymous keyboard jockeys who feel no repercussions.

debacle 11y ago
Reddit is a zero dollar company without users. The software platform is value-less and easy to recreate. Reddit pays for hosting, and if your business model is "we pay for hosting," your business is fragile.
lagadu 11y ago
> You can have opinions and attempt to have influence, but you have no flat out rights unless you are a decision maker at the corporation. That simply isn't true, as evidenced by Digg. The users, as a whole, are the one thing of value Reddit has and Reddit inc. has very little control over them.
danielweber 11y ago
There are three distinct groups who all have power: owners, moderators, users. (We saw the power of moderators when the blacked out the site in protest.) Any of the three, if they unite, can end the site. I've seen all sorts of communities go through the death spams where the owners get annoyed at all the users and wish they would disappear because it would make their job easier. I saw 'pg going in that direction here at HN, complaining what a bother the users were, but he sensibly saw HN as a loss-leader for YC and hired 'dang to be a professional moderator. So the owners and moderators are on the same page. But most places can't afford professional moderation, and so the moderators have power, and that dynamic can lead to the users feeling (rightly or wrongly) as if they are being abused.
- seiji 11y ago
  But most places can't afford professional moderation When you see Reddit employees driving around in their own Teslas, the "can't afford" point seems quite moot. (not that I'm bitter—I'm happy for you—but I'm less happy for me as a result. Brains are awful.) The weird Reddit dynamic is volunteers have full control and the volunteers aren't courted by the site very much. All moderators of subreddits with more than X thousand subscribers should have monthly conference calls with the core Reddit moderation team to keep everybody on the same page, to address issues before they arise, and to give the moderators more of a feeling of being part of the whole. Also, pay them various amounts from token thanks payments to some multiplier of minimum wage (based on size of community? size of active community? size of active community over the past 30 days? can't make it too gamifyable).
  - danielweber 11y ago
    If the going wage for reddit employees means they can afford Teslas, then that's the going rate. Reddit needs a moderation team of hundreds or thousands. There's no way that's affordable.
    - seiji 11y ago
      It's a management problem. We have books and courses that teach management. We don't have to re-create the history of humanity every time we have a new problem just because "computers." As far as thousands of moderators, you just make rings: ring 0 = Reddit Corporate employees; ring 1 = moderators of high-value subreddits (paid, maybe not full time, but compensated); ring 2 = moderators can elect sub-moderators for helping (maybe paid, maybe an on-boarding process for ring 1); ring 3 = community moderators (no pay, but trusted with simple decisions); ring 4 = on boarding for ring 3; ring 5 = unprivileged users.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
The users can get a new site easier than reddit can get new users. As long as the majority of users are happy, admins have the most power. But scare off enough and it snow balls into another Digg.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
xienze 11y ago
> Reddit has this strange power inversion dynamic where the users think they are entitled to run the site. To be fair, Reddit isn't what it is without the users. So there is some legitimate amount of power that the users have.
- seiji 11y ago
  HN is a user driven site and the users have zero power.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    HM users are highly in demand tech professionals. They hold all of the power. An online community without the users has no value. Users have no barrier to move elsewhere.

by seiji 11y ago

debacle 11y ago

Reddit is a zero dollar company without users. The software platform is value-less and easy to recreate. Reddit pays for hosting, and if your business model is "we pay for hosting," your business is fragile.

lagadu 11y ago

> You can have opinions and attempt to have influence, but you have no flat out rights unless you are a decision maker at the corporation. That simply isn't true, as evidenced by Digg. The users, as a whole, are the one thing of value Reddit has and Reddit inc. has very little control over them.

danielweber 11y ago

There are three distinct groups who all have power: owners, moderators, users. (We saw the power of moderators when the blacked out the site in protest.) Any of the three, if they unite, can end the site. I've seen all sorts of communities go through the death spams where the owners get annoyed at all the users and wish they would disappear because it would make their job easier. I saw 'pg going in that direction here at HN, complaining what a bother the users were, but he sensibly saw HN as a loss-leader for YC and hired 'dang to be a professional moderator. So the owners and moderators are on the same page. But most places can't afford professional moderation, and so the moderators have power, and that dynamic can lead to the users feeling (rightly or wrongly) as if they are being abused.

seiji 11y ago
But most places can't afford professional moderation When you see Reddit employees driving around in their own Teslas, the "can't afford" point seems quite moot. (not that I'm bitter—I'm happy for you—but I'm less happy for me as a result. Brains are awful.) The weird Reddit dynamic is volunteers have full control and the volunteers aren't courted by the site very much. All moderators of subreddits with more than X thousand subscribers should have monthly conference calls with the core Reddit moderation team to keep everybody on the same page, to address issues before they arise, and to give the moderators more of a feeling of being part of the whole. Also, pay them various amounts from token thanks payments to some multiplier of minimum wage (based on size of community? size of active community? size of active community over the past 30 days? can't make it too gamifyable).
- danielweber 11y ago
  If the going wage for reddit employees means they can afford Teslas, then that's the going rate. Reddit needs a moderation team of hundreds or thousands. There's no way that's affordable.
  - seiji 11y ago
    It's a management problem. We have books and courses that teach management. We don't have to re-create the history of humanity every time we have a new problem just because "computers." As far as thousands of moderators, you just make rings: ring 0 = Reddit Corporate employees; ring 1 = moderators of high-value subreddits (paid, maybe not full time, but compensated); ring 2 = moderators can elect sub-moderators for helping (maybe paid, maybe an on-boarding process for ring 1); ring 3 = community moderators (no pay, but trusted with simple decisions); ring 4 = on boarding for ring 3; ring 5 = unprivileged users.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago

The users can get a new site easier than reddit can get new users. As long as the majority of users are happy, admins have the most power. But scare off enough and it snow balls into another Digg.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

xienze 11y ago

> Reddit has this strange power inversion dynamic where the users think they are entitled to run the site. To be fair, Reddit isn't what it is without the users. So there is some legitimate amount of power that the users have.

seiji 11y ago
HN is a user driven site and the users have zero power.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  HM users are highly in demand tech professionals. They hold all of the power. An online community without the users has no value. Users have no barrier to move elsewhere.