4 ms·

Of course you can call it "EU expansionism" if Ukraine slipping away from Russia's sphere of influence and making a trade deal with EU since it believes this wi

Of course you can call it "EU expansionism" if Ukraine slipping away from Russia's sphere of influence and making a trade deal with EU since it believes this will be in the long-term interests of its people. However, I believe in the right of people and nations to decide their own destinies. A "catalyst" is not a reason, nor is it a justification.

rorykoehler 11y ago
If you look at it from an entirely neutral perspective it is clear provocation. This has nothing to do with democracy. It is pure empire building and it is dishonest to dress it up as anything else. The terms of the trade deal were EU exclusivity and the termination of strong existing Russian ties. This is nothing but provocative. It's reckless and incendiary. Sure I would prefer people to have European values over Russian ones (I'm very happy we just legalized gay marriage in Ireland for example), but not like this. Ukraine is much more Russian culturally than it is European, and if it came to a EU wide referendum I would vote against Ukraine becoming an EU member. I wouldn't be surprised if I am part of the majority in this opinion. The EU, a project I strongly believe in, is struggling to hold itself together as it is without pissing in the hornets nest. We need stronger ties with Russia, not weaker ones. Weaker ties only bring us closer to a hot war and that will help nobody. What happened in Ukraine was a microcosm of what could happen on a much larger scale if we do not act more subtly and inclusively.
- peterfirefly 11y ago
  If you look at it from an entirely neutral perspective it is clear you are an idiot... or maybe that's not actually such a neutral perspective after all?
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    One of the reasons I enjoy this forum is because of the lack of the type of comments such as yours. This isn't Reddit. Under the guideline of the site, which I'm sure you have read due to it getting posted regularly (here's the link in any case https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), it states the following: In Comments Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please bear this in mind for the future.
    - peterfirefly 11y ago
      I'm pointing out that your "neutral perspective" really isn't in a way you couldn't miss. That's all. I don't find you an idiot but I do find that you are strongly biased. Please refrain from that in the future and provide arguments and sources instead.
      - rorykoehler 11y ago
        Well you could have phrased it more eloquently. Please feel free to elaborate on what a truly neutral perspective is. Memories seem to be short when it comes to politics. Timeline... Russia has historically strong ties with with Ukraine and a bunch of trade agreements. NATO make noise about Ukraine joining (dangerous provocation, imagine Russia got Mexico on board with military strategy) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7312045.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7312045.stm .... Yanukovych gets democratically elected (accepted as legitimate by international monitors... whether it was or not in reality I don't know so I will take this at face value. You can read the wikipedia on Ukraine Election 2010 for more infos).... EU push for trade deal that will bring Ukraine closer to Europe at the expense of Russia (despite all the marketing fluff about shared values, democracy, good governance that the EU like to roll out I think we are all smart enough to read between the lines. There is also a side story here in that EU were trying to slow the NATO expansion by stepping in first https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/16/1653792_us-embassy-cables-french-and-americans-exchange-views-on.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/16/1653792_us-embassy-cab...).... Euromaiden happens after a tug of war between Russia and EU ... Yanukovych gets booted (undemocratically... it's ok when it suits us but not when it doesn't)... The likes of John McCain turn up in Ukraine to supports the demonstrators (wtf is he doing there?)... Russia invades the Russian parts of Ukraine and takes over. I am a little biased in that I think peaceful methods should be pursued almost exclusively and I think the EU has been largely successful with this internally so far. Ukraine was a step too far. All parties involved in Ukraine acted deplorably and it pains me to see people taking sides based on a perceived moral superiority. I find it hard to buy into the good guy bad guy narrative when everyone is slaughtering each other left, right and center. Having a soft border, both geographically and economically, between the EU and Russia is probably best for everyone involved in regards to Ukraine.

rorykoehler 11y ago

If you look at it from an entirely neutral perspective it is clear provocation. This has nothing to do with democracy. It is pure empire building and it is dishonest to dress it up as anything else. The terms of the trade deal were EU exclusivity and the termination of strong existing Russian ties. This is nothing but provocative. It's reckless and incendiary. Sure I would prefer people to have European values over Russian ones (I'm very happy we just legalized gay marriage in Ireland for example), but not like this. Ukraine is much more Russian culturally than it is European, and if it came to a EU wide referendum I would vote against Ukraine becoming an EU member. I wouldn't be surprised if I am part of the majority in this opinion. The EU, a project I strongly believe in, is struggling to hold itself together as it is without pissing in the hornets nest. We need stronger ties with Russia, not weaker ones. Weaker ties only bring us closer to a hot war and that will help nobody. What happened in Ukraine was a microcosm of what could happen on a much larger scale if we do not act more subtly and inclusively.

peterfirefly 11y ago
If you look at it from an entirely neutral perspective it is clear you are an idiot... or maybe that's not actually such a neutral perspective after all?
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  One of the reasons I enjoy this forum is because of the lack of the type of comments such as yours. This isn't Reddit. Under the guideline of the site, which I'm sure you have read due to it getting posted regularly (here's the link in any case https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), it states the following: In Comments Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please bear this in mind for the future.
  - peterfirefly 11y ago
    I'm pointing out that your "neutral perspective" really isn't in a way you couldn't miss. That's all. I don't find you an idiot but I do find that you are strongly biased. Please refrain from that in the future and provide arguments and sources instead.
    - rorykoehler 11y ago
      Well you could have phrased it more eloquently. Please feel free to elaborate on what a truly neutral perspective is. Memories seem to be short when it comes to politics. Timeline... Russia has historically strong ties with with Ukraine and a bunch of trade agreements. NATO make noise about Ukraine joining (dangerous provocation, imagine Russia got Mexico on board with military strategy) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7312045.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7312045.stm .... Yanukovych gets democratically elected (accepted as legitimate by international monitors... whether it was or not in reality I don't know so I will take this at face value. You can read the wikipedia on Ukraine Election 2010 for more infos).... EU push for trade deal that will bring Ukraine closer to Europe at the expense of Russia (despite all the marketing fluff about shared values, democracy, good governance that the EU like to roll out I think we are all smart enough to read between the lines. There is also a side story here in that EU were trying to slow the NATO expansion by stepping in first https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/16/1653792_us-embassy-cables-french-and-americans-exchange-views-on.html https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/16/1653792_us-embassy-cab...).... Euromaiden happens after a tug of war between Russia and EU ... Yanukovych gets booted (undemocratically... it's ok when it suits us but not when it doesn't)... The likes of John McCain turn up in Ukraine to supports the demonstrators (wtf is he doing there?)... Russia invades the Russian parts of Ukraine and takes over. I am a little biased in that I think peaceful methods should be pursued almost exclusively and I think the EU has been largely successful with this internally so far. Ukraine was a step too far. All parties involved in Ukraine acted deplorably and it pains me to see people taking sides based on a perceived moral superiority. I find it hard to buy into the good guy bad guy narrative when everyone is slaughtering each other left, right and center. Having a soft border, both geographically and economically, between the EU and Russia is probably best for everyone involved in regards to Ukraine.