4 ms·

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done q

by joshmn 11y ago

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sneak up on me every now and then, which have just as occasionally impacted my professional life. But I made it. I'm a rare breed and I'm thankful. If I would have added a college degree to my life's work, it would be one less strike against me. A strike that I wouldn't have to prove myself for or against. My advice: Anyone who is at or nearing the end of their high school career, please go to college. Two years at a community college, and then two years wherever you want to go. ~$70k and you're done. While you're on HN, you're in a social circle of where it's not abnormal for people to be successful without a college degree. In the real world, however, this number is much slimmer than it's made out to be here. That said, don't think that all you need is education either. A diploma is a piece of paper that shows you followed a curriculum, bought someone a new Mercedes, and slaved away for countless hours on end. Your battle doesn't end there — experience in the real world goes a lot further than you think it does.

SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
If money is an issue, I totally second the idea of 2 years community college plus 2 years of university. In my case, I went to a state university (which was a UC, so not too shabby) and no one ever questioned "graduated 19xx from UC San Diego" on my resume. No one cares where you went for the first two years (possible exception: Graduate school? No idea). Though honestly people don't care at this point whether I went to college at all -- but I can't say for sure whether I would be where I am today without the degree.
- joshmn 11y ago
  If no one cares where you went for the first two years, why not take the cheaper option at the expense of the "college experience"? I never got said college experience obviously, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But in terms of value, spending 1/5th of uni/state school per semester and getting <nearly> the same thing? I'll take it.
  - SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
    I'm actually in total agreement, but let me argue devil's advocate for a moment: * I've known people who bonded with lifelong friends during their first year in the dorms together. When you've all been separated from your family for the first time and as a group are thrown together, often even sharing rooms, there's a very strong psychological bond that can form. I'm still in touch with my first UCSD roommate; we both were transferring in as juniors and they matched us up. But if they hadn't matched the two of us, I might not have bonded with anyone as well; I've long lost touch with rest of my first year "roommates" (we shared an apartment). * When you transfer in, you often need to take the special unique prerequisite classes for the new school. There were several classes I took as a junior with a lot of freshmen. * If you are talking about the option to get into a prestigious school, the people you meet there are potential connections that can accelerate your career at various points. The longer you go to the same university, the more of those connections you'll meet. I went to a UC, and it does rank in the top 20 (I think it even hit #7 recently in some report?), and so it's a great school, but it's not a prestigious school, so I don't know that it counts. I had the option to transfer to Berkeley instead (I was accepted), and in retrospect I probably should have, if only for the prestige. That said, I'm honestly not clear that university is an absolute requirement for success today, at least in software development. I'm not quite ready to tell people they shouldn't go, but neither would I tell them they should.
lsc 11y ago
If you have an opportunity to go to a really top-end school, sure, take it. That's really valuable. But remember, that's not an opportunity most people have. Don't pretend that a degree from the school you see advertised on daytime TV is the same sort of product. This, I think, is the "big lie" about college. The idea that a poor person with a degree from a shitty college is going to have even just the opportunities that I had[1]... is a lie. There's really no other way to put it. Sure, if you can get into a really good college and make sure you work your way into a peer group of successful people? It can be a great leg up. Hell, if I thought I could get into Stanford, I'd take four years off right now[2]. But going to the sort of college your average poor person is going to go to, and being around other people in that same situation isn't going to get you the opportunities I got for just being born. [1]to be clear, My parents were pretty solidly middle class, not rich. So am I. I'm a competent but not great sysadmin/programmer; I didn't go to college, but I had all of the advantages that your average kid who goes to a mid-level college would have. [2]But the sort of mid-level school that would accept a mid-level middle-class mid-achieving guy like me? Maybe a nice UC? Yeah, four years at your average mid-level school isn't going to increase my salary any more than four years of changing my job to focus on the more in-demand bits of my industry. Probably a lot less, in fact. I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun, but I don't know if it's half a million bucks in fun.
- joshmn 11y ago
  Incredibly well said. My parents — probably like yours — are very traditional. And in so, they are convinced that having that piece of paper means you're +$30k a year from the start <at least AND no matter what other circumstances> ( except outliers). I STILL hear this all the time... "when I was your age..." I reply, "yeah well when Barack Obama was your age, he was the first black President of the United States of America." When my parents were my age, they could go to school full-time at the University of Minnesota, have a minimum wage job, and at 16 hours a week they would be able to afford their education and living expenses. Those were the days where it made sense to have an education because it was such a great value at a very affordable price. BUT. Now, because it's so much easier to get <nearly free money> (a la student loans), Universities saw this as money in their pocket: Since students are getting money easier, that means it's easier for them to get an education; now that there's more money available, let's make more money for ourselves! It's a terrible fucking system.
rifung 11y ago
I'm in a similar position. Also 24, and didn't finish college. I haven't had trouble getting jobs, but I still have to answer the "So why didn't you finish school" question no matter where I apply. I ended up just leaving my education off my resume but I still seem to get asked often.
- joshmn 11y ago
  Well, honesty hour: why didn't you? My reason (maybe for inspiration?)... If someone expects me to read a book and apply concepts from it, I'm going to have a terrible time. Not because I can't read, but because I won't. I don't learn by reading a book. I learn by doing. Georgetown was first — more traditional school. That didn't last long. Thought that somewhere more "in my niche" would do things differently. Nope.
  - rifung 11y ago
    Mostly because I didn't want to spend my parents' money on it when I felt I had learned enough to get a job. I also decided I wanted to double major in Math but since it was just for myself I didn't feel like it was fair to my parents to delay my financial independence I'm the opposite of you, I actually really enjoy learning from books. But then again, I typically like learning about theoretical concepts so that may be why books are fine for me; I just think about them, play with them in my mind, and do exercises if they have any.

by joshmn 11y ago

SomeCallMeTim 11y ago

If money is an issue, I totally second the idea of 2 years community college plus 2 years of university. In my case, I went to a state university (which was a UC, so not too shabby) and no one ever questioned "graduated 19xx from UC San Diego" on my resume. No one cares where you went for the first two years (possible exception: Graduate school? No idea). Though honestly people don't care at this point whether I went to college at all -- but I can't say for sure whether I would be where I am today without the degree.

joshmn 11y ago
If no one cares where you went for the first two years, why not take the cheaper option at the expense of the "college experience"? I never got said college experience obviously, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But in terms of value, spending 1/5th of uni/state school per semester and getting <nearly> the same thing? I'll take it.
- SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
  I'm actually in total agreement, but let me argue devil's advocate for a moment: * I've known people who bonded with lifelong friends during their first year in the dorms together. When you've all been separated from your family for the first time and as a group are thrown together, often even sharing rooms, there's a very strong psychological bond that can form. I'm still in touch with my first UCSD roommate; we both were transferring in as juniors and they matched us up. But if they hadn't matched the two of us, I might not have bonded with anyone as well; I've long lost touch with rest of my first year "roommates" (we shared an apartment). * When you transfer in, you often need to take the special unique prerequisite classes for the new school. There were several classes I took as a junior with a lot of freshmen. * If you are talking about the option to get into a prestigious school, the people you meet there are potential connections that can accelerate your career at various points. The longer you go to the same university, the more of those connections you'll meet. I went to a UC, and it does rank in the top 20 (I think it even hit #7 recently in some report?), and so it's a great school, but it's not a prestigious school, so I don't know that it counts. I had the option to transfer to Berkeley instead (I was accepted), and in retrospect I probably should have, if only for the prestige. That said, I'm honestly not clear that university is an absolute requirement for success today, at least in software development. I'm not quite ready to tell people they shouldn't go, but neither would I tell them they should.

lsc 11y ago

If you have an opportunity to go to a really top-end school, sure, take it. That's really valuable. But remember, that's not an opportunity most people have. Don't pretend that a degree from the school you see advertised on daytime TV is the same sort of product. This, I think, is the "big lie" about college. The idea that a poor person with a degree from a shitty college is going to have even just the opportunities that I had[1]... is a lie. There's really no other way to put it. Sure, if you can get into a really good college and make sure you work your way into a peer group of successful people? It can be a great leg up. Hell, if I thought I could get into Stanford, I'd take four years off right now[2]. But going to the sort of college your average poor person is going to go to, and being around other people in that same situation isn't going to get you the opportunities I got for just being born. [1]to be clear, My parents were pretty solidly middle class, not rich. So am I. I'm a competent but not great sysadmin/programmer; I didn't go to college, but I had all of the advantages that your average kid who goes to a mid-level college would have. [2]But the sort of mid-level school that would accept a mid-level middle-class mid-achieving guy like me? Maybe a nice UC? Yeah, four years at your average mid-level school isn't going to increase my salary any more than four years of changing my job to focus on the more in-demand bits of my industry. Probably a lot less, in fact. I mean, it sounds like a lot of fun, but I don't know if it's half a million bucks in fun.

joshmn 11y ago
Incredibly well said. My parents — probably like yours — are very traditional. And in so, they are convinced that having that piece of paper means you're +$30k a year from the start <at least AND no matter what other circumstances> ( except outliers). I STILL hear this all the time... "when I was your age..." I reply, "yeah well when Barack Obama was your age, he was the first black President of the United States of America." When my parents were my age, they could go to school full-time at the University of Minnesota, have a minimum wage job, and at 16 hours a week they would be able to afford their education and living expenses. Those were the days where it made sense to have an education because it was such a great value at a very affordable price. BUT. Now, because it's so much easier to get <nearly free money> (a la student loans), Universities saw this as money in their pocket: Since students are getting money easier, that means it's easier for them to get an education; now that there's more money available, let's make more money for ourselves! It's a terrible fucking system.

rifung 11y ago

I'm in a similar position. Also 24, and didn't finish college. I haven't had trouble getting jobs, but I still have to answer the "So why didn't you finish school" question no matter where I apply. I ended up just leaving my education off my resume but I still seem to get asked often.

joshmn 11y ago
Well, honesty hour: why didn't you? My reason (maybe for inspiration?)... If someone expects me to read a book and apply concepts from it, I'm going to have a terrible time. Not because I can't read, but because I won't. I don't learn by reading a book. I learn by doing. Georgetown was first — more traditional school. That didn't last long. Thought that somewhere more "in my niche" would do things differently. Nope.
- rifung 11y ago
  Mostly because I didn't want to spend my parents' money on it when I felt I had learned enough to get a job. I also decided I wanted to double major in Math but since it was just for myself I didn't feel like it was fair to my parents to delay my financial independence I'm the opposite of you, I actually really enjoy learning from books. But then again, I typically like learning about theoretical concepts so that may be why books are fine for me; I just think about them, play with them in my mind, and do exercises if they have any.