7 ms·

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management a

by zig 11y ago

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful. The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29. Get it over with :)

degenerate 11y ago
The important thing is to keep learning on your own during the 4 years of college. You're essentially playing the game, going through the motions for the degree. What they teach you in college you probably won't apply to your actual job, so keep learning on your own and teaching yourself new programming languages, tools, and techniques for what you enjoy doing. The degree just opens doors.
- Alupis 11y ago
  The degree doesn't just open doors, it forces you to learn and be exposed to some things you wouldn't have otherwise. Sure, we can say taking a Film Study class is a waste of time, but I can tell you from experience that years later, you will look at things in film a little different than before. Would I have sat down on my own and studied film techniques, types of lighting, angles, etc...? Probably not. Does it apply to my career? Well, not directly, other than making the mind think about things a little different. Without those CS classes forcing you to learn Binary Trees, Shortest Path, Circular Queue, Algorithmic Proofs, etc... how many would sit down on their own and learn them? Probably very few. Will it apply directly to a job? Maybe. It really depends on what type of job you have. Simply "programming" or "developing", then probably not. Engineering a system, then those Priority Queue's probably come in handy. A lot of arguments settle on the basis that [1]University doesn't teach you anything you couldn't learn already, and/or [2]it doesn't teach job skills. 1) Of course it teaches things you could learn on your own... but would you? It's unlikely. 2) Of course it doesn't teach job skills, University is not a Trade School. The big take away from University is that it's an experience that enriches your life. It's unlikely you will notice it immediately, but it will impact your life in a positive manner. University shows commitment, and accomplishment.
  - ghufran_syed 11y ago
    As they say in finance, "price is what you pay, value is what you get". In these discussions about college, it's worth us differentiating those two parts. Many of those arguing in favor of college are describing the value of college ('what you get'), without discussing the price. Many of those arguing against college are focussing mainly on the price (tuition, lost earnings etc) without discussing the value. Clearly, the balance between the two is what matters, and that is different for different careers, and different funding mechanisms for college. As a thought experiment, imagine the same college degree was available: 1) tuition free, with an additional $20,000 / year given to you for living expenses 2) tuition free, with no living expenses 3) at a tuition cost of $100,000 4) at a tuition cost of $1,000,000 5) at a tuition cost of $10,000,000 and so on 'What you get' in the degree would be the same in each case, but there come a point where 'what you pay' would be too high in relation to 'what you get'.
Dorian-Marie 11y ago
I'm 23, left school when 21 and now going back exactly for the same reason. Without an degree you have to prove yourself harder for every single little thing (resume, visa, job applications, etc.).
verbin217 11y ago
In my personal experience a solid work history is much better than a degree. Once you have it the value of a degree decreases significantly. Its almost entirely redundant. The only problem is you often need the degree to get the work history. I've also noticed as I start working with people who have their Masters and some with PHDs that people take me seriously. It's like... I must know what I'm talking about. How else would I still be here?
- vonmoltke 11y ago
  Not having a degree does lock you out of some opportunities where HR uses it as a binary checkbox. We can go on and on here about how such policies are stupid and how you wouldn't really want to work at a place like that anyway, but the fact of the matter is not having a degree closes doors. In that sense, there is value to having one.
  - ams6110 11y ago
    That is true but if you have a good work history, in most cases nobody will really care where the degree is from, what you majored in, or what your grades were, etc. Only that you have a degree to satisfy that checkbox.
  - busterarm 11y ago
    Especially at companies that are using some SaaS product to streamline their recruitment process...Greenhouse, I'm looking at you. I don't even bother applying to companies that do that anymore as it's counter to my whole "make a personal connection at the company to apply" philosophy.
  - verbin217 11y ago
    Right, I agree. Towards the end of my comment I tried to express that there is some value in not having one. Like entirely in addition to the benefits of, what I believe is, a superior education and lack of student debt. If you're actively involved in doing this stuff you're going to be able to find the work you want. It's easy. You just contact the people working on it and tell them what you're going to do for them.
untog 11y ago
Also, as someone who has dealt with visa issues before, it's far, far easier to move around the world if you have a university education. Maybe right now you don't think you'll want to, but it's a tremendous opportunity to have.
- xiaoma 11y ago
  Money opens those doors even wider. Once you hit a certain level of financial independence, not only is it easy to visit wherever you choose, but permanent residency and even citizenship often become much more straightforward as well.
  - volaski 11y ago
    No one is saying go to college and forget about money. I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder but I actually do know a thing or two about buying citizenship and green card with money. It is FAAAAAAAR easier to just go to college than become rich enough not to care about these things. Most college grads will never accumulate enough money in their youth to buy green card from countries they aspire to move to. Also buying green card is also not as easy as it sounds.
    - eshvk 11y ago
      Agree. - Most (all?) work visas in the United States require a degree in the field of specialization. - The "buying green card" program requires one to invest at least a million dollars and create at least ten jobs for two years before you get one. [1] [1] http://www.uscis.gov/eb-5 http://www.uscis.gov/eb-5
    - xiaoma 11y ago
      >I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder I've spent half my adult life living abroad and have met many people foreigners in many countries including the US who have gotten great visas without a college degree. And money isn't even the only way. Becoming an expert at one's field is also a great route to a visa, and it pays a whole lot better than being just another person with a degree. For certain fields, a college degree is required and the gatekeepers are inflexible. For those in fields where success is more easily observable—sales, direct response marketing, entrepreneurship, novel writing, programming, pop music, etc—it's better to save the money and spend the time on actually mastering the craft and its business rather than on collecting credentials. @eshvk: I know multiple foreign nationals without degrees who have held engineering or even engineering leadership positions at YC companies.
antidamage 11y ago
I'm 37. At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set. In fact, ten years ago I was approached by a university to start my Master's degree, with the missing Bachelor's degree being credited through time spent working in my industry at the time. The reality of education in America is that it's an expensive tickbox. It verges on being a racket. While you don't want to be the lone rebel being crushed under the wheels of the machine, if you can avoid becoming indentured to the government with a student loan then do yourself a favour and choose not to waste money on education you can just teach yourself.
- dopamean 11y ago
  I'm 29 and do not have an undergrad degree. I was recently accepted to a well respected masters in computer science program. I declined to go because I'm pretty happy with my career trajectory at the moment and I think taking the time off work to do that would actually be detrimental.
  - ErikRogneby 11y ago
    Usually to be accepted you need to apply. Why apply if you were going to turn it down? (genuine curiosity)
    - jamestnz 11y ago
      I'm not the OP, but I think it's not that uncommon for people to apply for positions/opportunities that they're either ambivalent about, or outright have no intention of accepting. I know I've done it before. Some feel this helps them to stay "well practiced" at going through recruitment/interviewing, gives them a good reason to keep their résumé up to date, expands their professional network, gives the potential confidence-boost of being offered a position then declining it, and so forth.
    - dopamean 11y ago
      Hey sorry for the late reply. I applied at a time when I was unhappy with my job and was unsure of my prospects. During the time I applied I was out doing interviews as well. I got a job at a company I love and am really excited about it. That excitement has more to do with why I declined to go to grad school in the end.
bdg 11y ago
All the companies I've ever been interested in never had a problem with my education. One actually asked me to verify I'm a drop-out for their background check =/
- marincounty 11y ago
  I couldn't imagine a tech start-up caring about college--unless it's a big stupid company? Plus--the guys I know without a degree, seem to try a little bit harder? I've always thought if I had the right idea, and funding--would I even bother to hire a college graduate, unless they had a lot of projects/accomplishments under their belt? I would prefer people who worked hard, and didn't have that Little bit of self-entitlement a degree brings.(It's there--it seems to just sneak in somewhere along the line? I have found it gets in the way--sometimes?) Unless your degree is in the hard sciences, we all know what college entailed; for most of us it was a four years of fun, and the worst day in college was better than working? Hell--I never wanted to leave!(That was before it got so expensive though.) I sometimes over hear recent graduates in gossip groups(usually after a few cocktails) go on and on about their degree, and college accomplishments; If my upchuck reflex is not irritated--I listen a bit, and ask myself, "I couldn't imagine paying them to do anything?". That said, if you can swing it; go to college, and I guarantee when you look back, it will be the best years of your life--for the majority of you. While I'm on it--don't let upper division classes scare you. I found them no harder than lower division courses. If for some reason you find yourself wanting to drop out, get a four year degree in anything! Anything! Go to a notoriously easy college like Santa Cruz, or Chico State and get your degree in Spacing Out? Why, because too many of the idiots out there still think a bachelor's degree is important? Oh, and they love to quote that worn out statistic, that I can't even write anymore. I guess it's still true--so finish and get the diploma? I have a weird feeling federal bankruptcy laws might change in the future, and student loans might become dischargable? One other thing, that person in college you kinda take for granted--that guy, or girl who you sometimes wonder, "Why do they put up with my antics?"; are not hanging out in bars waiting for you to graduate with open arms!
  - ErikRogneby 11y ago
    There are plenty of tech startups where the people doing the interviewing are recent enough out of their CS degree that they ask you a bunch of big-O related questions. If you didn't go to college and just have been hacking on code you probably don't know the answer. Personally I feel like this is misguided and probably triggered more around self-validation and feeling clever. (worry about scale when you need to, etc...)
jlarocco 11y ago
Agreed. When people say degrees are overrated and there are too many people with "useless" degrees, they're not talking about science and engineering degrees. Skipping a degree in CS is just making things harder for yourself. Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.
- delecti 11y ago
  > Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree. If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college? I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I just think that that's not the best way to highlight it. For example, college is quite useful for the connections and career placement assistance.
  - jlarocco 11y ago
    > If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college? I can only speak to my experience, but most of my friends in college worked while they were in school, and eventually got decent paying internships their junior and senior years. I think most of us had to take out loans, but I know I was able to pay mine off less than 2 years out of school, and I think most people did. 4 years in school isn't necessarily accumulating a lot of debt. And it wouldn't surprise me if the person with the CS degree still enough extra money to account for student loans. Of course that's assuming the person in question is pretty smart (and they better be if they're considering skipping college) and can get at least some kind of financial aid or scholarship money. It's also assuming they're not insisting on a big name school.
    - delecti 11y ago
      If you took 2 years to pay it off at dev salaries then that's probably a fair bit of debt. And besides, that really just deflects my point by saying "well it's not that much debt".
seansmccullough 11y ago
* But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans.
- Alupis 11y ago
  > * But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans I think this is a societal issue rather than an education issue. We're so quick to encourage people to achieve a degree in whatever makes them happy, even say Art History or Medieval European History, knowing full well that the prospects of gaining a decent paying job after school is practically zero. How does that Art History major repay a $30K student loan when they can realistically only get a $30K a year salaried job? Should't we as a society encourage people to major in things that will pay off in the end? Or instead deny loans to degree programs that statistically are turning out far too many candidates for a very small field (leading to massive unemployment for that degree program)?
  - chrisseaton 11y ago
    This is such nonsense! You can do almost anything you want with an Art History or Medieval European History degree. Do you think there's some kind of requirement that you can only take a job in the field you studied? I have friends who did degrees in Theology who went into banking and insurance and make several times what I do with my Computer Science degree.
    - FLUX-YOU 11y ago
      With today's college prices, it's a bit silly to play chicken with your financial life vs. the job market It'd stand to reason that you could make that much, if not more, than your friends because you have a technical degree. I know this is more about having a job than not, but the technical degree would also improve your chances vs. your friends
      - chrisseaton 11y ago
        > It'd stand to reason that you could make that much, if not more, than your friends because you have a technical degree. Yeah that's my point. The jobs those chose were open to (very talented people) who studied any degree - Computer Science, Theology, whatever. There are thousands of well-paying and very well-paying jobs that are similarly open to any degrees.
someear 11y ago
I think blanket advice for everyone is probably not the right approach. Getting a college degree is likely the best path to financial success for most people, but definitely isn't for all. For some, the opportunity cost of investing time/money into an education prevents them from learning more through some alternate means (i.e. starting your own company, apprenticeship with key individuals, etc.), and may lead to more economic success. Probably not true for the vast majority of people, but definitely true for some.
rayiner 11y ago
> For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. Also, at that age you really don't know what you may want to do with your life. At 19 I seriously considered dropping out of college to go full-time at the startup I was working at. At 25 I decided I wanted to get into a different career entirely, one where a college degree was required (as is the case in pretty much every white collar profession besides programming).
unimpressive 11y ago
Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die. And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me from attributing my success to anything else, and it will help empower these institutions to keep intruding into lives and charging people outrageous fees through what is essentially a collectively enforced racket. Going will be existentially painful, so I'm avoiding it for as long as possible.
- msutherl 11y ago
  This is extraordinarily cynical. There are many different colleges in different places, different majors, and different lifestyles you can construct that ultimately get you through the machine and out the other end after 4 years. If you can't find a configuration that works for you, you will probably be miserable anywhere doing anything. FWIW, I went to university in a large city outside of the US and basically never went to class, worked in a research lab the whole time, and spent a lot of time partying. Still, it was a stressful time and I have a lot of regrets, but I can't blame the environment ... I chose to live the way that I did. Ultimately my life isn't so different now than it was then except I make more money and I figured out the stress thing. Other people go to tightly knit schools in small towns that provide a comprehensive 'experience,' or play sports and hang out in frat houses. Perhaps this is what you think college is like for everyone. Trust me: it isn't. Choose what you think will work best for you (hint: location is the most important factor) and make it work.
- mikekchar 11y ago
  As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once... So, basically, what I'm saying is that on the one hand working in industry will give you important skills that are hard to learn anywhere else. You need to learn to read and write code, and you have to learn idiomatic ways of programming, and you have to do a lot of it. You need to learn how to work with others and how to effectively prioritise work. You can't learn this at school. On the other hand, you will be in an environment which may stunt your growth because it is often dominated by people who think that being able to write code is the only valuable thing a programmer needs. School is an academic environment with (hopefully!) a focus on academic goals. You will need these things to claw your way beyond the mediocrity that pervades our industry. It's not that you can't learn it anywhere else, but it is often hard to understand what is important and what isn't unless you can surround yourself with people who have an academic focus. I would gouge my eyes out before I would go back to school again, but I am very grateful that I did go. I encourage you to either go to school or devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Doing it by yourself is much more difficult, but by no means impossible.

by zig 11y ago

degenerate 11y ago

The important thing is to keep learning on your own during the 4 years of college. You're essentially playing the game, going through the motions for the degree. What they teach you in college you probably won't apply to your actual job, so keep learning on your own and teaching yourself new programming languages, tools, and techniques for what you enjoy doing. The degree just opens doors.

Alupis 11y ago
The degree doesn't just open doors, it forces you to learn and be exposed to some things you wouldn't have otherwise. Sure, we can say taking a Film Study class is a waste of time, but I can tell you from experience that years later, you will look at things in film a little different than before. Would I have sat down on my own and studied film techniques, types of lighting, angles, etc...? Probably not. Does it apply to my career? Well, not directly, other than making the mind think about things a little different. Without those CS classes forcing you to learn Binary Trees, Shortest Path, Circular Queue, Algorithmic Proofs, etc... how many would sit down on their own and learn them? Probably very few. Will it apply directly to a job? Maybe. It really depends on what type of job you have. Simply "programming" or "developing", then probably not. Engineering a system, then those Priority Queue's probably come in handy. A lot of arguments settle on the basis that [1]University doesn't teach you anything you couldn't learn already, and/or [2]it doesn't teach job skills. 1) Of course it teaches things you could learn on your own... but would you? It's unlikely. 2) Of course it doesn't teach job skills, University is not a Trade School. The big take away from University is that it's an experience that enriches your life. It's unlikely you will notice it immediately, but it will impact your life in a positive manner. University shows commitment, and accomplishment.
- ghufran_syed 11y ago
  As they say in finance, "price is what you pay, value is what you get". In these discussions about college, it's worth us differentiating those two parts. Many of those arguing in favor of college are describing the value of college ('what you get'), without discussing the price. Many of those arguing against college are focussing mainly on the price (tuition, lost earnings etc) without discussing the value. Clearly, the balance between the two is what matters, and that is different for different careers, and different funding mechanisms for college. As a thought experiment, imagine the same college degree was available: 1) tuition free, with an additional $20,000 / year given to you for living expenses 2) tuition free, with no living expenses 3) at a tuition cost of $100,000 4) at a tuition cost of $1,000,000 5) at a tuition cost of $10,000,000 and so on 'What you get' in the degree would be the same in each case, but there come a point where 'what you pay' would be too high in relation to 'what you get'.

Dorian-Marie 11y ago

I'm 23, left school when 21 and now going back exactly for the same reason. Without an degree you have to prove yourself harder for every single little thing (resume, visa, job applications, etc.).

verbin217 11y ago

In my personal experience a solid work history is much better than a degree. Once you have it the value of a degree decreases significantly. Its almost entirely redundant. The only problem is you often need the degree to get the work history. I've also noticed as I start working with people who have their Masters and some with PHDs that people take me seriously. It's like... I must know what I'm talking about. How else would I still be here?

vonmoltke 11y ago
Not having a degree does lock you out of some opportunities where HR uses it as a binary checkbox. We can go on and on here about how such policies are stupid and how you wouldn't really want to work at a place like that anyway, but the fact of the matter is not having a degree closes doors. In that sense, there is value to having one.
- ams6110 11y ago
  That is true but if you have a good work history, in most cases nobody will really care where the degree is from, what you majored in, or what your grades were, etc. Only that you have a degree to satisfy that checkbox.
- busterarm 11y ago
  Especially at companies that are using some SaaS product to streamline their recruitment process...Greenhouse, I'm looking at you. I don't even bother applying to companies that do that anymore as it's counter to my whole "make a personal connection at the company to apply" philosophy.
- verbin217 11y ago
  Right, I agree. Towards the end of my comment I tried to express that there is some value in not having one. Like entirely in addition to the benefits of, what I believe is, a superior education and lack of student debt. If you're actively involved in doing this stuff you're going to be able to find the work you want. It's easy. You just contact the people working on it and tell them what you're going to do for them.

untog 11y ago

Also, as someone who has dealt with visa issues before, it's far, far easier to move around the world if you have a university education. Maybe right now you don't think you'll want to, but it's a tremendous opportunity to have.

xiaoma 11y ago
Money opens those doors even wider. Once you hit a certain level of financial independence, not only is it easy to visit wherever you choose, but permanent residency and even citizenship often become much more straightforward as well.
- volaski 11y ago
  No one is saying go to college and forget about money. I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder but I actually do know a thing or two about buying citizenship and green card with money. It is FAAAAAAAR easier to just go to college than become rich enough not to care about these things. Most college grads will never accumulate enough money in their youth to buy green card from countries they aspire to move to. Also buying green card is also not as easy as it sounds.
  - eshvk 11y ago
    Agree. - Most (all?) work visas in the United States require a degree in the field of specialization. - The "buying green card" program requires one to invest at least a million dollars and create at least ten jobs for two years before you get one. [1] [1] http://www.uscis.gov/eb-5 http://www.uscis.gov/eb-5
  - xiaoma 11y ago
    >I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder I've spent half my adult life living abroad and have met many people foreigners in many countries including the US who have gotten great visas without a college degree. And money isn't even the only way. Becoming an expert at one's field is also a great route to a visa, and it pays a whole lot better than being just another person with a degree. For certain fields, a college degree is required and the gatekeepers are inflexible. For those in fields where success is more easily observable—sales, direct response marketing, entrepreneurship, novel writing, programming, pop music, etc—it's better to save the money and spend the time on actually mastering the craft and its business rather than on collecting credentials. @eshvk: I know multiple foreign nationals without degrees who have held engineering or even engineering leadership positions at YC companies.

antidamage 11y ago

I'm 37. At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set. In fact, ten years ago I was approached by a university to start my Master's degree, with the missing Bachelor's degree being credited through time spent working in my industry at the time. The reality of education in America is that it's an expensive tickbox. It verges on being a racket. While you don't want to be the lone rebel being crushed under the wheels of the machine, if you can avoid becoming indentured to the government with a student loan then do yourself a favour and choose not to waste money on education you can just teach yourself.

dopamean 11y ago
I'm 29 and do not have an undergrad degree. I was recently accepted to a well respected masters in computer science program. I declined to go because I'm pretty happy with my career trajectory at the moment and I think taking the time off work to do that would actually be detrimental.
- ErikRogneby 11y ago
  Usually to be accepted you need to apply. Why apply if you were going to turn it down? (genuine curiosity)
  - jamestnz 11y ago
    I'm not the OP, but I think it's not that uncommon for people to apply for positions/opportunities that they're either ambivalent about, or outright have no intention of accepting. I know I've done it before. Some feel this helps them to stay "well practiced" at going through recruitment/interviewing, gives them a good reason to keep their résumé up to date, expands their professional network, gives the potential confidence-boost of being offered a position then declining it, and so forth.
  - dopamean 11y ago
    Hey sorry for the late reply. I applied at a time when I was unhappy with my job and was unsure of my prospects. During the time I applied I was out doing interviews as well. I got a job at a company I love and am really excited about it. That excitement has more to do with why I declined to go to grad school in the end.

bdg 11y ago

All the companies I've ever been interested in never had a problem with my education. One actually asked me to verify I'm a drop-out for their background check =/

marincounty 11y ago
I couldn't imagine a tech start-up caring about college--unless it's a big stupid company? Plus--the guys I know without a degree, seem to try a little bit harder? I've always thought if I had the right idea, and funding--would I even bother to hire a college graduate, unless they had a lot of projects/accomplishments under their belt? I would prefer people who worked hard, and didn't have that Little bit of self-entitlement a degree brings.(It's there--it seems to just sneak in somewhere along the line? I have found it gets in the way--sometimes?) Unless your degree is in the hard sciences, we all know what college entailed; for most of us it was a four years of fun, and the worst day in college was better than working? Hell--I never wanted to leave!(That was before it got so expensive though.) I sometimes over hear recent graduates in gossip groups(usually after a few cocktails) go on and on about their degree, and college accomplishments; If my upchuck reflex is not irritated--I listen a bit, and ask myself, "I couldn't imagine paying them to do anything?". That said, if you can swing it; go to college, and I guarantee when you look back, it will be the best years of your life--for the majority of you. While I'm on it--don't let upper division classes scare you. I found them no harder than lower division courses. If for some reason you find yourself wanting to drop out, get a four year degree in anything! Anything! Go to a notoriously easy college like Santa Cruz, or Chico State and get your degree in Spacing Out? Why, because too many of the idiots out there still think a bachelor's degree is important? Oh, and they love to quote that worn out statistic, that I can't even write anymore. I guess it's still true--so finish and get the diploma? I have a weird feeling federal bankruptcy laws might change in the future, and student loans might become dischargable? One other thing, that person in college you kinda take for granted--that guy, or girl who you sometimes wonder, "Why do they put up with my antics?"; are not hanging out in bars waiting for you to graduate with open arms!
- ErikRogneby 11y ago
  There are plenty of tech startups where the people doing the interviewing are recent enough out of their CS degree that they ask you a bunch of big-O related questions. If you didn't go to college and just have been hacking on code you probably don't know the answer. Personally I feel like this is misguided and probably triggered more around self-validation and feeling clever. (worry about scale when you need to, etc...)

jlarocco 11y ago

Agreed. When people say degrees are overrated and there are too many people with "useless" degrees, they're not talking about science and engineering degrees. Skipping a degree in CS is just making things harder for yourself. Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

delecti 11y ago
> Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree. If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college? I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I just think that that's not the best way to highlight it. For example, college is quite useful for the connections and career placement assistance.
- jlarocco 11y ago
  > If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college? I can only speak to my experience, but most of my friends in college worked while they were in school, and eventually got decent paying internships their junior and senior years. I think most of us had to take out loans, but I know I was able to pay mine off less than 2 years out of school, and I think most people did. 4 years in school isn't necessarily accumulating a lot of debt. And it wouldn't surprise me if the person with the CS degree still enough extra money to account for student loans. Of course that's assuming the person in question is pretty smart (and they better be if they're considering skipping college) and can get at least some kind of financial aid or scholarship money. It's also assuming they're not insisting on a big name school.
  - delecti 11y ago
    If you took 2 years to pay it off at dev salaries then that's probably a fair bit of debt. And besides, that really just deflects my point by saying "well it's not that much debt".

seansmccullough 11y ago

* But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans.

Alupis 11y ago
> * But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans I think this is a societal issue rather than an education issue. We're so quick to encourage people to achieve a degree in whatever makes them happy, even say Art History or Medieval European History, knowing full well that the prospects of gaining a decent paying job after school is practically zero. How does that Art History major repay a $30K student loan when they can realistically only get a $30K a year salaried job? Should't we as a society encourage people to major in things that will pay off in the end? Or instead deny loans to degree programs that statistically are turning out far too many candidates for a very small field (leading to massive unemployment for that degree program)?
- chrisseaton 11y ago
  This is such nonsense! You can do almost anything you want with an Art History or Medieval European History degree. Do you think there's some kind of requirement that you can only take a job in the field you studied? I have friends who did degrees in Theology who went into banking and insurance and make several times what I do with my Computer Science degree.
  - FLUX-YOU 11y ago
    With today's college prices, it's a bit silly to play chicken with your financial life vs. the job market It'd stand to reason that you could make that much, if not more, than your friends because you have a technical degree. I know this is more about having a job than not, but the technical degree would also improve your chances vs. your friends
    - chrisseaton 11y ago
      > It'd stand to reason that you could make that much, if not more, than your friends because you have a technical degree. Yeah that's my point. The jobs those chose were open to (very talented people) who studied any degree - Computer Science, Theology, whatever. There are thousands of well-paying and very well-paying jobs that are similarly open to any degrees.

someear 11y ago

I think blanket advice for everyone is probably not the right approach. Getting a college degree is likely the best path to financial success for most people, but definitely isn't for all. For some, the opportunity cost of investing time/money into an education prevents them from learning more through some alternate means (i.e. starting your own company, apprenticeship with key individuals, etc.), and may lead to more economic success. Probably not true for the vast majority of people, but definitely true for some.

rayiner 11y ago

> For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. Also, at that age you really don't know what you may want to do with your life. At 19 I seriously considered dropping out of college to go full-time at the startup I was working at. At 25 I decided I wanted to get into a different career entirely, one where a college degree was required (as is the case in pretty much every white collar profession besides programming).

unimpressive 11y ago

Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die. And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me from attributing my success to anything else, and it will help empower these institutions to keep intruding into lives and charging people outrageous fees through what is essentially a collectively enforced racket. Going will be existentially painful, so I'm avoiding it for as long as possible.

msutherl 11y ago
This is extraordinarily cynical. There are many different colleges in different places, different majors, and different lifestyles you can construct that ultimately get you through the machine and out the other end after 4 years. If you can't find a configuration that works for you, you will probably be miserable anywhere doing anything. FWIW, I went to university in a large city outside of the US and basically never went to class, worked in a research lab the whole time, and spent a lot of time partying. Still, it was a stressful time and I have a lot of regrets, but I can't blame the environment ... I chose to live the way that I did. Ultimately my life isn't so different now than it was then except I make more money and I figured out the stress thing. Other people go to tightly knit schools in small towns that provide a comprehensive 'experience,' or play sports and hang out in frat houses. Perhaps this is what you think college is like for everyone. Trust me: it isn't. Choose what you think will work best for you (hint: location is the most important factor) and make it work.
mikekchar 11y ago
As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once... So, basically, what I'm saying is that on the one hand working in industry will give you important skills that are hard to learn anywhere else. You need to learn to read and write code, and you have to learn idiomatic ways of programming, and you have to do a lot of it. You need to learn how to work with others and how to effectively prioritise work. You can't learn this at school. On the other hand, you will be in an environment which may stunt your growth because it is often dominated by people who think that being able to write code is the only valuable thing a programmer needs. School is an academic environment with (hopefully!) a focus on academic goals. You will need these things to claw your way beyond the mediocrity that pervades our industry. It's not that you can't learn it anywhere else, but it is often hard to understand what is important and what isn't unless you can surround yourself with people who have an academic focus. I would gouge my eyes out before I would go back to school again, but I am very grateful that I did go. I encourage you to either go to school or devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Doing it by yourself is much more difficult, but by no means impossible.