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> gofmt is about code formatting. Design patterns are about abstraction and expressiveness. First, gofmt can do more than code formatting, such as applying sim

> gofmt is about code formatting. Design patterns are about abstraction and expressiveness. First, gofmt can do more than code formatting, such as applying simplifying code transformations that are semantically equivalent. Second, code formatting and design patterns are indeed related, because the way code is laid out in text is the way that design patterns are expressed. The layout of code affects how abstractions are presented, which affects which abstractions are easy to reason about and work with. Finally, I picked gofmt because it's a pretty uncontroversial tool, and one that is so successful that even languages like Rust have adopted or are working something similar. I'm really not interested in starting another flamewar about why Go lacks $FEATURE and therefore $OTHER_LANG is better, because we have had enough of those on HN, don't you think?

pcwalton 11y ago
> First, gofmt can do more than code formatting, such as applying simplifying code transformations that are semantically equivalent Which also has nothing to do with design patterns. (At least not if you're limited to the extremely basic -r gofmt rewrite rules.) > Second, code formatting and design patterns are indeed related, because the way code is laid out in text is the way that design patterns are expressed. The layout of code affects how abstractions are presented, which affects which abstractions are easy to reason about and work with. No, I don't buy that a code formatting tool obviates the need for design patterns. How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)?
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)? This would not be the first time that we have had a discussion on HN about this exact design pattern in Go, so it's hardly a random choice. And given past precedent, I think it's best if I end my half of the conversation here and propose to agree to disagree. To quote my previous post, > I'm really not interested in starting another flamewar about why Go lacks $X and therefore $Y is better, because we have had enough of those on HN, don't you think?
- slapresta 11y ago
  > No, I don't buy that a code formatting tool obviates the need for design patterns. How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)? Asking if a code formatting tool "obviates the need for design patterns" is the wrong question, because it assumes that there is a need for design patterns in the first place. I do agree with you that a code formatting tool is not capable of somehow fixing software design and architecture decisions. However, "design patterns" by their GoF meaning exist as to address shortcomings of the languages and tools used: most of their advice does not make sense as soon as you move away from Java into less object-oriented or less procedural languages. To talk about "the need for design patterns" as if they are some sort of mathematical truth is misleading and dangerous. So, yes, I would argue that Go does not need the Visitor pattern (and so would Rob Pike [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/3fOIZ1VLn1o/GeE1z5qUA6YJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/3fOIZ1VLn1...] ), code formatting tool notwithstanding.
  - pcwalton 11y ago
    You do need design patterns in Go. A prime example: the interface that Sort() requires is basically the Strategy pattern. You need it in Go because the language is missing generics. There are many other examples. In that message, Rob Pike misunderstands what the visitor pattern is for. Go's "type switch" is just chained Java instanceof. Java still benefits from the visitor pattern for (e.g.) compiler transformations, even though it has instanceof.
    - eropple 11y ago
      This is one of the more troubling aspects of the parts of the Go community that I am exposed to--aggressive insularity. It's perhaps cyclical--in the past I've made similar criticisms of Node, and did of Ruby before the hype died down and the more aggressively enthusiastic people calmed down or moved on--but it's kind of a pain in the rear at present. That said, Go's deification of a single individual is unique to me; of Matz, Guido, Bjarne, Gosling, or Rasmus, I don't know any who are quoted as if it's by itself persuasive. What Rob Pike says about things is not necessarily correct--and sometimes it's not even accurate--but seems strangely, to Go advocates (as separate from "Go users"), to immediately enter a sort of canon to be trotted out at every opportunity.
serge2k 11y ago
You picked gofmt because go fans can't get over their amazement that a code formatting tool exists. Did you all write your code in notepad before?

pcwalton 11y ago

> First, gofmt can do more than code formatting, such as applying simplifying code transformations that are semantically equivalent Which also has nothing to do with design patterns. (At least not if you're limited to the extremely basic -r gofmt rewrite rules.) > Second, code formatting and design patterns are indeed related, because the way code is laid out in text is the way that design patterns are expressed. The layout of code affects how abstractions are presented, which affects which abstractions are easy to reason about and work with. No, I don't buy that a code formatting tool obviates the need for design patterns. How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)?

chimeracoder 11y ago
> How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)? This would not be the first time that we have had a discussion on HN about this exact design pattern in Go, so it's hardly a random choice. And given past precedent, I think it's best if I end my half of the conversation here and propose to agree to disagree. To quote my previous post, > I'm really not interested in starting another flamewar about why Go lacks $X and therefore $Y is better, because we have had enough of those on HN, don't you think?
slapresta 11y ago
> No, I don't buy that a code formatting tool obviates the need for design patterns. How does gofmt replace the Visitor pattern (just to pick one at random from the GoF)? Asking if a code formatting tool "obviates the need for design patterns" is the wrong question, because it assumes that there is a need for design patterns in the first place. I do agree with you that a code formatting tool is not capable of somehow fixing software design and architecture decisions. However, "design patterns" by their GoF meaning exist as to address shortcomings of the languages and tools used: most of their advice does not make sense as soon as you move away from Java into less object-oriented or less procedural languages. To talk about "the need for design patterns" as if they are some sort of mathematical truth is misleading and dangerous. So, yes, I would argue that Go does not need the Visitor pattern (and so would Rob Pike [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/3fOIZ1VLn1o/GeE1z5qUA6YJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/golang-nuts/3fOIZ1VLn1...] ), code formatting tool notwithstanding.
- pcwalton 11y ago
  You do need design patterns in Go. A prime example: the interface that Sort() requires is basically the Strategy pattern. You need it in Go because the language is missing generics. There are many other examples. In that message, Rob Pike misunderstands what the visitor pattern is for. Go's "type switch" is just chained Java instanceof. Java still benefits from the visitor pattern for (e.g.) compiler transformations, even though it has instanceof.
  - eropple 11y ago
    This is one of the more troubling aspects of the parts of the Go community that I am exposed to--aggressive insularity. It's perhaps cyclical--in the past I've made similar criticisms of Node, and did of Ruby before the hype died down and the more aggressively enthusiastic people calmed down or moved on--but it's kind of a pain in the rear at present. That said, Go's deification of a single individual is unique to me; of Matz, Guido, Bjarne, Gosling, or Rasmus, I don't know any who are quoted as if it's by itself persuasive. What Rob Pike says about things is not necessarily correct--and sometimes it's not even accurate--but seems strangely, to Go advocates (as separate from "Go users"), to immediately enter a sort of canon to be trotted out at every opportunity.

serge2k 11y ago

You picked gofmt because go fans can't get over their amazement that a code formatting tool exists. Did you all write your code in notepad before?