5 ms·

.. only an electronic paper trail a mile long. Email is absolutely of legal value.

shin_lao 17y ago
I'd like you to exhibit cases where e-mail was ok to grant a copyright permission. My lawyers always told me the following: everything formal must be fax, snail mail or signed with an electronic certificate (I declare and pay my taxes with the later for example). Copyright handover is not just "ok we're going to buy you 2 computers" kind of e-mail.
- eli 17y ago
  And I'd like you to point out the law that says all contracts have to be written. With a few specific exceptions, they don't. Sure, you should get them in writing and signed to cover your ass, but an email contract is still perfectly valid in most cases. Just like a "handshake agreement" can be legally binding.
  - shin_lao 17y ago
    Which country are you referring to? In France this is not the case. If there is a disagreement and nothing is written down you're screwed. edit: I've checked up a bit. There is such a thing as "oral contract" in French law but it's very strict and limited to certain transactions. The legal definition of contract doesn't say if it must be written or not (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070721&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006436086&dateTexte=20091217 http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=...). It's extremely rare (read: never) to start a work without a signed fax or letter which basically says "ok, go ahead for that price". That goes from a plumber who's going to fix your sink to me paying a designer to work on a web site. I guess in some cases an e-mail has got a valid proof, but it depends on the price of the transaction. You can confirm a 1,000 € job by e-mail, but I guess a 100,000 € transaction needs more. What you need is a proof that the agreement occurred between the two entities. When giving someone the right to sell your product, I'm quite certain than an oral agreement or even an e-mail is insufficient. A printed e-mail sent by fax, let's just not talk about it. ;)
    - grayprog 17y ago
      The point with this case is that the first 2 reps told me it's ok to fax emails. And then they closed the account. And when I faxed signed paperes nobody wanted to look at them. Although they said "go ahead" and send. The real problem is that the support personnel are not the one making decisions, are not telling the same, and you can't talk to the people who really do decide. Plus, their action of closing my ability to receive payment (and provide service to my customers) without any warning is an extremely aggressive sanction, for no reason. Let's close his account and then see if he was doing legit business. In the mean time, "we're sorry for any inconvenience this may caused you". When you're doing a 2-week promotion, getting an account closed even for a week for "inspection" is not an option. After 2 weeks we were back to normal low activity, without the bundle.
      - shin_lao 17y ago
        I'm sorry for your problem, it shows that they are not well organized, but as I said in my first comment the best is to work with your bank for online payment. You can offer paypal as an additional payment system, but really, work with your bank. You know the guy/girl there, and they care more about your business than paypal, because your good business means money in their vaults.
    - emmett 17y ago
      In the United States, you can form a contract in pretty much any medium. Even oral contracts are respected, and certainly an email contract would be valid. For certain types of contracts (especially regarding real property, like cars and houses) you need a written agreement. France might have different rules.
  - bdonlan 17y ago
    http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#204 http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#204 "A transfer of copyright ownership, other than by operation of law, is not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent."
    - lutorm 17y ago
      There was no transfer of copyright here though.
grayprog 17y ago
So, is an email "signed" agreement valid or not?

I'd like you to exhibit cases where e-mail was ok to grant a copyright permission. My lawyers always told me the following: everything formal must be fax, snail mail or signed with an electronic certificate (I declare and pay my taxes with the later for example). Copyright handover is not just "ok we're going to buy you 2 computers" kind of e-mail.

eli 17y ago
And I'd like you to point out the law that says all contracts have to be written. With a few specific exceptions, they don't. Sure, you should get them in writing and signed to cover your ass, but an email contract is still perfectly valid in most cases. Just like a "handshake agreement" can be legally binding.
- shin_lao 17y ago
  Which country are you referring to? In France this is not the case. If there is a disagreement and nothing is written down you're screwed. edit: I've checked up a bit. There is such a thing as "oral contract" in French law but it's very strict and limited to certain transactions. The legal definition of contract doesn't say if it must be written or not (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070721&idArticle=LEGIARTI000006436086&dateTexte=20091217 http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=...). It's extremely rare (read: never) to start a work without a signed fax or letter which basically says "ok, go ahead for that price". That goes from a plumber who's going to fix your sink to me paying a designer to work on a web site. I guess in some cases an e-mail has got a valid proof, but it depends on the price of the transaction. You can confirm a 1,000 € job by e-mail, but I guess a 100,000 € transaction needs more. What you need is a proof that the agreement occurred between the two entities. When giving someone the right to sell your product, I'm quite certain than an oral agreement or even an e-mail is insufficient. A printed e-mail sent by fax, let's just not talk about it. ;)
  - grayprog 17y ago
    The point with this case is that the first 2 reps told me it's ok to fax emails. And then they closed the account. And when I faxed signed paperes nobody wanted to look at them. Although they said "go ahead" and send. The real problem is that the support personnel are not the one making decisions, are not telling the same, and you can't talk to the people who really do decide. Plus, their action of closing my ability to receive payment (and provide service to my customers) without any warning is an extremely aggressive sanction, for no reason. Let's close his account and then see if he was doing legit business. In the mean time, "we're sorry for any inconvenience this may caused you". When you're doing a 2-week promotion, getting an account closed even for a week for "inspection" is not an option. After 2 weeks we were back to normal low activity, without the bundle.
    - shin_lao 17y ago
      I'm sorry for your problem, it shows that they are not well organized, but as I said in my first comment the best is to work with your bank for online payment. You can offer paypal as an additional payment system, but really, work with your bank. You know the guy/girl there, and they care more about your business than paypal, because your good business means money in their vaults.
  - emmett 17y ago
    In the United States, you can form a contract in pretty much any medium. Even oral contracts are respected, and certainly an email contract would be valid. For certain types of contracts (especially regarding real property, like cars and houses) you need a written agreement. France might have different rules.
- bdonlan 17y ago
  http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#204 http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html#204 "A transfer of copyright ownership, other than by operation of law, is not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent."
  - lutorm 17y ago
    There was no transfer of copyright here though.

grayprog 17y ago

So, is an email "signed" agreement valid or not?