8 ms·

England House Prices Sad Story – Live Dashboard

16 points by briskat 11y ago

toyg 11y ago
> England is already the second most crowded major country in the EU This particular definition of country is an abuse of the British term (let alone "major"). You cannot compare England to Italy; you could compare it to Northern Italy, maybe. If you want to compare "major" country to "major" country, then use UK numbers. Figures would likely look different: every "major" nation out there will have more populous and less populous areas. You don't get to discount Scotland but include Southern Italy just because it suits your viewpoint better. TBH, here in Northern England there is still plenty of brownfield to revamp and house prices are fairly sane. The problem is not Europe or England, it's bloody London, so go fix your own bloody problem.
- waqf 11y ago
  England is more than four times the area of the second most dense EU country (Belgium) and nevertheless has higher population density. So the wording is imprecise but I don't think the comparison is unfair.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    NL is considerably more dense than Belgium and definitely not the most dense (that's Monaco).
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - waqf 11y ago
      Sorry, I omitted the qualifier ("major" in the original I was criticising) that was meant to exclude the tiny states which really are not a fair comparison (100 times smaller).
      - jacquesm 11y ago
        Belgium and NL are about the same size.
        waqf 11y ago
        But Monaco is not. So NL is the most dense [macroscopic] EU state, and England is more dense than the second most dense such state, Belgium.
  - IkmoIkmo 11y ago
    Actually afaik the Netherlands is more population dense than Belgium (and has a population nearing 20m, instead of a little over 10m.) Beyond that, it's absolutely true, the UK tops the list as a country with more than 20m people. (besides Germany, about 10% less dense or so, other populous countries like France, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, are much less dense, sometimes less than half as much)
    - waqf 11y ago
      Right, Belgium is the second most dense ["major"] EU country and NL is the first ... because as stated upthread, England isn't a country.
- pichin 11y ago
  I am particularly confused what made you so upset. Is it something that offends you?
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    He's not upset, he simply likes for things presented as facts to actually be facts and for the representation to fit reality without cherry picking the bits that support the foregone conclusion.
    - pichin 11y ago
      So then England is country and Northern Italy is a cultural and geographical region, without any administrative purpose. Those are facts. But I am confused because those facts are simply verifiable and nobody should react to them in this way.
      - toyg 11y ago
        Does England have a seat at the UN? I rest my case.
        pichin 11y ago
        Countries don't have seats in UN, states and kingdoms do. I rest my case.
        toyg 11y ago
        So let me get this straight -- which French "country" would you compare to England? The one that, by pure chance, happens to overlap with France-the-nation? Izzard's sketch on the tactical deployment of flags comes to mind. Oh, and what "administrative purpose" binds England so much, considering it doesn't even have its own separated Parliament? Just because you have a west-lothian identity crisis, it doesn't mean the world has to play along. You are free to refer to UK "countries" in internal matters (and football, of course), but when you go and compare with the rest of the world, you should be as honest as to compare entity-with-UN-seat to entity-with-UN-seat. Otherwise I might as well compare a couple of busy Italian blocks of flats to a Kent farm. EDIT: I don't make this point out of some particular passion, but because your idea absolves the UK government of abdicating its responsibilities. If there is a density problem in London, enact policies attracting people to other cities, cities that actually need more people and would benefit from expansion. That's what other countries do. Coming up with arbitrary comparisons just to twist facts to this or that agenda is simply dishonest.
- JosephRedfern 11y ago
  This is an interesting map of population density in the UK (from 2011): http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/interactive/census-map-2-1---pop-density/index.html http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/interactive/census-map-2-1---pop-d...) A quick search didn't turn up anything with a decent resolution that covered Europe/the rest of the world at the same time (seemed mainly to be on a per-country basis).
- briskat 11y ago
  I actually found this on wikipedia https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_popul...: "England officially became the second most crowded major country in the EU in 2008, according to figures released by the British Office for National Statistics" I believe, it's because people from continental Europe sometimes don't differ between UK and England - but it's sensitive issue in the UK :-). UK is actually the first if we take European countries with over 20M people - 255people/km2.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    And if we take countries with less than 20M people they're not even on the list, imagine that.
    - briskat 11y ago
      It's clear, that the regions varies - and you have the possibility to go and check the data in the dashboard - they are the ultimate source. It's definitely not only London and not England only. That's about it.
tim333 11y ago
It makes the property market look a bit more stable than it really is if you compare to this graph http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/ http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/
fooballs 11y ago
The key here is demand - with open door immigration from Europe, that demand is ever increasing. People are flocking to the UK, and want somewhere to live. As long as we have that massive population explosion, there's only one way for house prices to go. If we want to solve the problem, and a whole host of other problems, perhaps we shouldn't have an open door immigration policy.
- jkot 11y ago
  It will solve itself. In Ireland most immigrants left after crisis and market collapsed.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  ...or, build more affordable housing? Its not a zero-sum game. Change the rules!
  - fooballs 11y ago
    Building more and more housing isn't sustainable. We are a tiny island with limited land. A lot of people (Myself included) don't like to live in cities caged up like battery chickens.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Still, google satellite view shows that island as substantially undeveloped. You get a narrow view, living in a big city. Start to think the whole country looks like out your window.
      - toyg 11y ago
        Not just that, there are huge amounts of unreclaimed brownfield all around England, waiting to be put to good use. This country used to be the engine of the world, that took a lot of land that is now just rotting away. And of course, one could also envision policies that actually create attraction centres alternative to London. But surely that's unreasonable to expect.
marcosscriven 11y ago
Something not mentioned here is the historically low interest rates. The Bank of England base rate is only 0.5%, with mortgages available for only 2.0%. I think if mortgage rates went back to 6% - 8% a lot of people would be screwed.
- dataminer 11y ago
  Wouldn't the whole economy be screwed if interest rates are back up that much? It seems the low interest rates are the new normal, unless for some reason inflation becomes very high. With commodity prices falling hard due to increase productivity, that threat seems to be quite far now.

16 points by briskat 11y ago

toyg 11y ago

> England is already the second most crowded major country in the EU This particular definition of country is an abuse of the British term (let alone "major"). You cannot compare England to Italy; you could compare it to Northern Italy, maybe. If you want to compare "major" country to "major" country, then use UK numbers. Figures would likely look different: every "major" nation out there will have more populous and less populous areas. You don't get to discount Scotland but include Southern Italy just because it suits your viewpoint better. TBH, here in Northern England there is still plenty of brownfield to revamp and house prices are fairly sane. The problem is not Europe or England, it's bloody London, so go fix your own bloody problem.

waqf 11y ago
England is more than four times the area of the second most dense EU country (Belgium) and nevertheless has higher population density. So the wording is imprecise but I don't think the comparison is unfair.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  NL is considerably more dense than Belgium and definitely not the most dense (that's Monaco).
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - waqf 11y ago
    Sorry, I omitted the qualifier ("major" in the original I was criticising) that was meant to exclude the tiny states which really are not a fair comparison (100 times smaller).
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      Belgium and NL are about the same size.
      - waqf 11y ago
        But Monaco is not. So NL is the most dense [macroscopic] EU state, and England is more dense than the second most dense such state, Belgium.
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  Actually afaik the Netherlands is more population dense than Belgium (and has a population nearing 20m, instead of a little over 10m.) Beyond that, it's absolutely true, the UK tops the list as a country with more than 20m people. (besides Germany, about 10% less dense or so, other populous countries like France, Spain, Poland, Ukraine, are much less dense, sometimes less than half as much)
  - waqf 11y ago
    Right, Belgium is the second most dense ["major"] EU country and NL is the first ... because as stated upthread, England isn't a country.
pichin 11y ago
I am particularly confused what made you so upset. Is it something that offends you?
- jacquesm 11y ago
  He's not upset, he simply likes for things presented as facts to actually be facts and for the representation to fit reality without cherry picking the bits that support the foregone conclusion.
  - pichin 11y ago
    So then England is country and Northern Italy is a cultural and geographical region, without any administrative purpose. Those are facts. But I am confused because those facts are simply verifiable and nobody should react to them in this way.
    - toyg 11y ago
      Does England have a seat at the UN? I rest my case.
      - pichin 11y ago
        Countries don't have seats in UN, states and kingdoms do. I rest my case.
        toyg 11y ago
        So let me get this straight -- which French "country" would you compare to England? The one that, by pure chance, happens to overlap with France-the-nation? Izzard's sketch on the tactical deployment of flags comes to mind. Oh, and what "administrative purpose" binds England so much, considering it doesn't even have its own separated Parliament? Just because you have a west-lothian identity crisis, it doesn't mean the world has to play along. You are free to refer to UK "countries" in internal matters (and football, of course), but when you go and compare with the rest of the world, you should be as honest as to compare entity-with-UN-seat to entity-with-UN-seat. Otherwise I might as well compare a couple of busy Italian blocks of flats to a Kent farm. EDIT: I don't make this point out of some particular passion, but because your idea absolves the UK government of abdicating its responsibilities. If there is a density problem in London, enact policies attracting people to other cities, cities that actually need more people and would benefit from expansion. That's what other countries do. Coming up with arbitrary comparisons just to twist facts to this or that agenda is simply dishonest.
JosephRedfern 11y ago
This is an interesting map of population density in the UK (from 2011): http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/interactive/census-map-2-1---pop-density/index.html http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/interactive/census-map-2-1---pop-d...) A quick search didn't turn up anything with a decent resolution that covered Europe/the rest of the world at the same time (seemed mainly to be on a per-country basis).
briskat 11y ago
I actually found this on wikipedia https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_popul...: "England officially became the second most crowded major country in the EU in 2008, according to figures released by the British Office for National Statistics" I believe, it's because people from continental Europe sometimes don't differ between UK and England - but it's sensitive issue in the UK :-). UK is actually the first if we take European countries with over 20M people - 255people/km2.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  And if we take countries with less than 20M people they're not even on the list, imagine that.
  - briskat 11y ago
    It's clear, that the regions varies - and you have the possibility to go and check the data in the dashboard - they are the ultimate source. It's definitely not only London and not England only. That's about it.

tim333 11y ago

It makes the property market look a bit more stable than it really is if you compare to this graph http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/ http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/

fooballs 11y ago

The key here is demand - with open door immigration from Europe, that demand is ever increasing. People are flocking to the UK, and want somewhere to live. As long as we have that massive population explosion, there's only one way for house prices to go. If we want to solve the problem, and a whole host of other problems, perhaps we shouldn't have an open door immigration policy.

jkot 11y ago
It will solve itself. In Ireland most immigrants left after crisis and market collapsed.
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
...or, build more affordable housing? Its not a zero-sum game. Change the rules!
- fooballs 11y ago
  Building more and more housing isn't sustainable. We are a tiny island with limited land. A lot of people (Myself included) don't like to live in cities caged up like battery chickens.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Still, google satellite view shows that island as substantially undeveloped. You get a narrow view, living in a big city. Start to think the whole country looks like out your window.
    - toyg 11y ago
      Not just that, there are huge amounts of unreclaimed brownfield all around England, waiting to be put to good use. This country used to be the engine of the world, that took a lot of land that is now just rotting away. And of course, one could also envision policies that actually create attraction centres alternative to London. But surely that's unreasonable to expect.

marcosscriven 11y ago

Something not mentioned here is the historically low interest rates. The Bank of England base rate is only 0.5%, with mortgages available for only 2.0%. I think if mortgage rates went back to 6% - 8% a lot of people would be screwed.

dataminer 11y ago
Wouldn't the whole economy be screwed if interest rates are back up that much? It seems the low interest rates are the new normal, unless for some reason inflation becomes very high. With commodity prices falling hard due to increase productivity, that threat seems to be quite far now.