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> The world would be a better place if England and US had kept to themselves and never interfered in other countries. I strongly disagree with that. England an

> The world would be a better place if England and US had kept to themselves and never interfered in other countries. I strongly disagree with that. England and US not interfering in other countries would not have stopped other countries, most notably the USSR, in interfering with other countries. And the places where other countries, not England and US, had major influence, generally had much bigger problems with civil rights, freedom and material well-being. A significant indicator in this respect is the need to build walls to keep in the population in a country, because otherwise it would flee (and then call this "anti-Fascist protection wall"). Your hyperbole about "puppet Nazi government" in Ukraine pretty much proves the point: the Poroshenko government, elected with rather clear majority in what is a relatively free election, does have its problems in corruption and whatever, but not any worse than the previous one, which was an actual puppet of Putin. The EU has many problems, but being "Nazi like" is not really one of them.

bad_user 11y ago
The "Nazi" label has been used by the communists, being their common and invisible enemy, the modern equivalent being "terrorism". For example all political opposition that they arrested, executed or deported during communism were labeled with Nazi, or the local variant. Labeling Ukraine's government as being a "puppet Nazi government" shows a clear bias to Russia, as that's were this nonsense came from. I wonder why he hasn't mentioned the struggle of the people against the imperialist bourgeoisie.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  However, I see a change here happening over the past two decades: before, the opposition painted by Soviets and puppets was usually "fascism". Now it is "nazism" I believe this was simply because nazi is "national-socialist", which inconveniently rhymes with "international-socialist", which was the officially perfect doctrine of the Eastern Block. Therefore, "fascist" was the preferable enemy, even if it was the name of the lesser, Italian variant which was not quite as nasty and murderous. You can see this in all sorts of memorials in Russia, as well as textbooks. Nowadays there is less talk of international socialist, so Nazis have become a better term - perhaps because it is more useful in propaganda work in the West.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  Discussion around what happened in the Ukraine is generally presented as a false dichotomy. As much as I dislike Putin, his mafia style regime and everything it stands for, as an EU citizen, I'm embarrassed by how our (and the US) leaders acted. It was provocative and dare I say at a similar moral and ethical level to how Russia acted. I'm not sure it would have been possible to handle it perfectly given the situation but we handled it especially poorly. There was a possibility to take the middle road without unnecessary ultimatums and possibly by trying to instigate inclusive policies that straddled the line between Russian, Ukrainian and EU interests but instead the EU waded in with a heavy handed inflexible policy. It was clear that following the path we did would only result in violent confrontation and now that it has mostly settled down again I feel that the region is worse off and more fragile than before. All that death and destruction for what!?
  - bad_user 11y ago
    You're making it sound like what happened is the fault of Europe and the US. How could you possibly reach such a conclusion? If anything, I believe that the reaction was not aggressive enough and that the mild economic sanctions and ultimatums have been the only thing that prevented a serious escalation of the conflict, a conflict in which I must say, Russia illegally occupied a territory and created the rebels in the east, trampling on the sovereignty of another nation and they did so in your own backyard. This wasn't an ego fight, but a calculated move that would have happened regardless of the western reaction. Because lets be honest, Putin was losing in popularity, there's nothing like a new nationalistic drive to keep an impoverished population in line, plus occupying some territory, while teaching the neighbors what happens when leaving the party does have benefits. I'm also disappointed, but my reasoning is different.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      What's more, Russia set a precedent of trampling down the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) - the Budapest Memorandum where Ukraine gave away its nuclear weapons in 1993 after USSR collapsed, in exchange for an assurance that others (specifically Russia) will "refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territorial integrity." So, we now know how much worth the NPT is in Russia's eyes. Nothing.

bad_user 11y ago

The "Nazi" label has been used by the communists, being their common and invisible enemy, the modern equivalent being "terrorism". For example all political opposition that they arrested, executed or deported during communism were labeled with Nazi, or the local variant. Labeling Ukraine's government as being a "puppet Nazi government" shows a clear bias to Russia, as that's were this nonsense came from. I wonder why he hasn't mentioned the struggle of the people against the imperialist bourgeoisie.

ptaipale 11y ago
However, I see a change here happening over the past two decades: before, the opposition painted by Soviets and puppets was usually "fascism". Now it is "nazism" I believe this was simply because nazi is "national-socialist", which inconveniently rhymes with "international-socialist", which was the officially perfect doctrine of the Eastern Block. Therefore, "fascist" was the preferable enemy, even if it was the name of the lesser, Italian variant which was not quite as nasty and murderous. You can see this in all sorts of memorials in Russia, as well as textbooks. Nowadays there is less talk of international socialist, so Nazis have become a better term - perhaps because it is more useful in propaganda work in the West.
rorykoehler 11y ago
Discussion around what happened in the Ukraine is generally presented as a false dichotomy. As much as I dislike Putin, his mafia style regime and everything it stands for, as an EU citizen, I'm embarrassed by how our (and the US) leaders acted. It was provocative and dare I say at a similar moral and ethical level to how Russia acted. I'm not sure it would have been possible to handle it perfectly given the situation but we handled it especially poorly. There was a possibility to take the middle road without unnecessary ultimatums and possibly by trying to instigate inclusive policies that straddled the line between Russian, Ukrainian and EU interests but instead the EU waded in with a heavy handed inflexible policy. It was clear that following the path we did would only result in violent confrontation and now that it has mostly settled down again I feel that the region is worse off and more fragile than before. All that death and destruction for what!?
- bad_user 11y ago
  You're making it sound like what happened is the fault of Europe and the US. How could you possibly reach such a conclusion? If anything, I believe that the reaction was not aggressive enough and that the mild economic sanctions and ultimatums have been the only thing that prevented a serious escalation of the conflict, a conflict in which I must say, Russia illegally occupied a territory and created the rebels in the east, trampling on the sovereignty of another nation and they did so in your own backyard. This wasn't an ego fight, but a calculated move that would have happened regardless of the western reaction. Because lets be honest, Putin was losing in popularity, there's nothing like a new nationalistic drive to keep an impoverished population in line, plus occupying some territory, while teaching the neighbors what happens when leaving the party does have benefits. I'm also disappointed, but my reasoning is different.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    What's more, Russia set a precedent of trampling down the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) - the Budapest Memorandum where Ukraine gave away its nuclear weapons in 1993 after USSR collapsed, in exchange for an assurance that others (specifically Russia) will "refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territorial integrity." So, we now know how much worth the NPT is in Russia's eyes. Nothing.