5 ms·

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2]. As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed by the three fold increase in milk production! Sure, it's selective breeding, but that takes a huge toll on the animal, we don't consider its effect on the animal beyond its ability to live to give us that milk. Once again, we treat them as objects rather than animals that should have their own considerations. *One only needs to look as far as dog breeding to see an example of how much selective breeding can screw with an animal. It's strange though, your post brings me close to my initial thoughts that lead me to veganism... where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? There aren't any laws protecting them which aren't self enforced (the Animal Welfare Act explicitly excludes farm animals). I cannot agree that there is a workable solution except moving past this system, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I've seen many posts from dairy farmers turning away from the industry and going vegan, becoming champions for the cause, you seem like a nice and reasonable person, hope someday to see you in the tofu aisle! [1] http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/2006b/Breeding.html http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/... [2] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a-gallon-Farm-bill-impasse-could-send-US-off-dairy-cliff http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a....

CamperBob2 11y ago
...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative. I actually expect this trend to be pushed by the meat industry, not fought by it. Nobody wants to be in the animal-husbandry business less than the factory farms, because animals are expensive and inconvenient to deal with. It's going to make for a fascinating socioeconomic transition.
- marricks 11y ago
  Yep, that is a great workable solution without animal agriculture. I will be happy the day that "tissue" agriculture blows up, really hope they don't use that name though.... I think farms will see it as too much of a threat, and there isn't really applicable skills for going from a factory farm to vats or whatever the tissue is grown in. content edit: Ruminating on it a bit more, I see how you could be right for larger animal ag company. A dairy producer owns "So Delicious" coconut based yogurt and dairy alternatives, they could see it as a good way to diversify.
- Jweb_Guru 11y ago
  There are rather real questions around whether synthetic meat and dairy are going to be cheaper than the real thing, particularly when you factor in externalities like energy consumption. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you can do it economically, and so far nobody's demonstrated that in this case (unless I missed a very recent development). If it can't be, the meat industry (and consumers) are unlikely to accept such a transition without a serious fight.
  - CamperBob2 11y ago
    Have you looked at how much food, water, energy, equipment, and space it takes to raise livestock? It's insane.
    - Jweb_Guru 11y ago
      I'm well aware of how insane livestock costs are. Unfortunately, synthetic food costs are even more insane (and last time I checked, most depend on existing animal products anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Challenges--take https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Challenges--take a look at the existing culture medium candidates, keeping in mind that fetal bovine serum is made from cattle blood): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Economic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Economic. Note that the person saying that it will be cost-competitive in ten years has a pretty vested interest in that being the case. I'd be particularly wary of anyone citing vertical farms as being a cost saver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming#Problems. To be clear, it's possible that these problems are surmountable. But frankly, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper (both economically and from an environmental standpoint) to change our dietary habits; meat with every meal is going to be costly no matter what.
hueving 11y ago
What is your idealistic outcome? All of these cows are released into the wild and are killed within one to two generations by wolves or mountain lions? The cows that exist now are essentially useless without farmers. If you are ethically bound with them, how do you come to terms with the terror they will live through until they die?
- marricks 11y ago
  What do you think cows are, mindless? There is are wild populations of cows that do just fine, here's one[1]. Sure we helped guide their evolution a bit so they are kinder to us and have more desirable traits from our perspective, but they still have all the instincts and intelligence to do alright in the wild, not that I think they should be. My ideal solution would be a steep decline in dairy production with a coinciding decrease in the breeding of dairy cows until they are gone and hopefully many moved to farm sanctuaries. Each life born into that industry is a short life of suffering. This would help save many wild species as animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction and ocean dead zones[2]. Veganism isn't some simple "every life must live no matter what" it's that if we don't have to harm an animal we shouldn't. If we're ethically bound with them, how do we deal with the terror they CURRENTLY live through until they die? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_wild_cattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_wild_cattle [2] http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm
  - hueving 11y ago
    You linked to cows on an island that have no predators. That's meaningless in the context of cows from Idaho (the context of this thread) where they have to deal with the predators. Your assertion that their life in a farm is worse than a life in fear of predators is largely unfounded and seems to be based on "no humans = humane" doublethink.
    - marricks 11y ago
      I didn't say they should be all let free immediately, you created some false dichotomy to aid in your construction of a straw-man to argue with. I answered your question and told you what I thought was my ideal, steep reduction in production until it's gone. We choose to put all these cows into the world (even though we don't need them) and give them shitty conditions. The onus is on us just stop the cycle and let them drastically decrease in numbers and die out so we don't keep on bringing million more into existence. Are you considering what your arguing? You think that life trapped in a container where you're forced to become impregnated every year and have your baby stolen within a few days after it's born is better than living free for a time with your herd? That view is divorced from reality. Mountain lions may rip your throat out, but they don't enslave your species and put you in such confined controlled environments that the only meaningful decision you can make is which way to turn your head. Cows are herbivores, but just like us the extent of their desire doesn't end at getting food and sleeping. They're social creatures who care for their young and live in groups. Us putting them in cages and forcing them to produce milk 24 / 7 in not how they want to be. EDIT: Your argument about there being no natural predators is really pointless. I never said they should immediately be set free, that's a juvenile perspective. I do want you to understand you need to try and support your claims and do research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feral_cattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feral_cattle.

CamperBob2 11y ago

...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative. I actually expect this trend to be pushed by the meat industry, not fought by it. Nobody wants to be in the animal-husbandry business less than the factory farms, because animals are expensive and inconvenient to deal with. It's going to make for a fascinating socioeconomic transition.

marricks 11y ago
Yep, that is a great workable solution without animal agriculture. I will be happy the day that "tissue" agriculture blows up, really hope they don't use that name though.... I think farms will see it as too much of a threat, and there isn't really applicable skills for going from a factory farm to vats or whatever the tissue is grown in. content edit: Ruminating on it a bit more, I see how you could be right for larger animal ag company. A dairy producer owns "So Delicious" coconut based yogurt and dairy alternatives, they could see it as a good way to diversify.
Jweb_Guru 11y ago
There are rather real questions around whether synthetic meat and dairy are going to be cheaper than the real thing, particularly when you factor in externalities like energy consumption. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you can do it economically, and so far nobody's demonstrated that in this case (unless I missed a very recent development). If it can't be, the meat industry (and consumers) are unlikely to accept such a transition without a serious fight.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  Have you looked at how much food, water, energy, equipment, and space it takes to raise livestock? It's insane.
  - Jweb_Guru 11y ago
    I'm well aware of how insane livestock costs are. Unfortunately, synthetic food costs are even more insane (and last time I checked, most depend on existing animal products anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Challenges--take https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Challenges--take a look at the existing culture medium candidates, keeping in mind that fetal bovine serum is made from cattle blood): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Economic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Economic. Note that the person saying that it will be cost-competitive in ten years has a pretty vested interest in that being the case. I'd be particularly wary of anyone citing vertical farms as being a cost saver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming#Problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming#Problems. To be clear, it's possible that these problems are surmountable. But frankly, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper (both economically and from an environmental standpoint) to change our dietary habits; meat with every meal is going to be costly no matter what.

hueving 11y ago

What is your idealistic outcome? All of these cows are released into the wild and are killed within one to two generations by wolves or mountain lions? The cows that exist now are essentially useless without farmers. If you are ethically bound with them, how do you come to terms with the terror they will live through until they die?

marricks 11y ago
What do you think cows are, mindless? There is are wild populations of cows that do just fine, here's one[1]. Sure we helped guide their evolution a bit so they are kinder to us and have more desirable traits from our perspective, but they still have all the instincts and intelligence to do alright in the wild, not that I think they should be. My ideal solution would be a steep decline in dairy production with a coinciding decrease in the breeding of dairy cows until they are gone and hopefully many moved to farm sanctuaries. Each life born into that industry is a short life of suffering. This would help save many wild species as animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction and ocean dead zones[2]. Veganism isn't some simple "every life must live no matter what" it's that if we don't have to harm an animal we shouldn't. If we're ethically bound with them, how do we deal with the terror they CURRENTLY live through until they die? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_wild_cattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleutian_wild_cattle [2] http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm
- hueving 11y ago
  You linked to cows on an island that have no predators. That's meaningless in the context of cows from Idaho (the context of this thread) where they have to deal with the predators. Your assertion that their life in a farm is worse than a life in fear of predators is largely unfounded and seems to be based on "no humans = humane" doublethink.
  - marricks 11y ago
    I didn't say they should be all let free immediately, you created some false dichotomy to aid in your construction of a straw-man to argue with. I answered your question and told you what I thought was my ideal, steep reduction in production until it's gone. We choose to put all these cows into the world (even though we don't need them) and give them shitty conditions. The onus is on us just stop the cycle and let them drastically decrease in numbers and die out so we don't keep on bringing million more into existence. Are you considering what your arguing? You think that life trapped in a container where you're forced to become impregnated every year and have your baby stolen within a few days after it's born is better than living free for a time with your herd? That view is divorced from reality. Mountain lions may rip your throat out, but they don't enslave your species and put you in such confined controlled environments that the only meaningful decision you can make is which way to turn your head. Cows are herbivores, but just like us the extent of their desire doesn't end at getting food and sleeping. They're social creatures who care for their young and live in groups. Us putting them in cages and forcing them to produce milk 24 / 7 in not how they want to be. EDIT: Your argument about there being no natural predators is really pointless. I never said they should immediately be set free, that's a juvenile perspective. I do want you to understand you need to try and support your claims and do research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feral_cattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feral_cattle.