6 ms·

Couple good points in your comment, some not so good. But trust me, I appreciate your comments. On milk factories and breeding, yes. That is part of the curr

Couple good points in your comment, some not so good. But trust me, I appreciate your comments. On milk factories and breeding, yes. That is part of the current game. But I would argue that selective breeding has been done for centuries, we've just gotten better at it. Capitalism has basically forced dairymen to become more efficient -- which is good and bad. My grandfather's cows gave 40-50 lbs of milk per day, my father's cows give 80 (some up to 120). There are consequences when that happens. How you get there is better breeding and better feed (feed has a lot to do with it). On cow longevity, the lifespan of a dairy cow is actually a little longer than that, but the actual longevity it depends on the breed. Holsteins go for about 6 years (lets not kids ourselves, that is not a huge jump in longevity compared to your stated 4). As a comparison, the typical beef cow lives about 2 years. I would talk about veal....but even I don't eat veal. After 6 years the animal is "beefed", as kids we would called it "sold to McDonald's". My next door neighbor was a butcher, basically the only parts unused in a cow are the tail and the moo. Almost nothing goes to waist. Never heard of a "rape rack", I had to look it up. I know a lot of AI breeders as well, that isn't how it is done on the dairies I've seen. From what I've seen it is not necessary, it is pretty easy to get the job done. But, lets talk female cows...ok, lets bring in biology here, female herbivores of almost any herd species (cows, buffalo, goats, sheep, etc) don't have many periods if there are functioning males around. If those animals are ovulating, the males notice -- even the females notice and tell the males about them. On subsidies: most subsidies are "floors". No one gets money from the government unless the price of their product drops consistently below a set point. This happened for a brief period in 2009, and even then a lot of operations went out of business (which is by design actually). This isn't like farmers being paid to not farm (that happens -- ugg). But you also can't say the government is completely out of it either, because the government does buy a lot of milk product, usually powdered milk protein, which is often sent as aid to other countries. Finally, I don't know if I would say a that everything is broken, but lets agree that things could be better. Somewhere between the ideals and where we are now is probably a workable solution that is good for the cows and keeps people's livelihoods.

marricks 11y ago
You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2]. As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed by the three fold increase in milk production! Sure, it's selective breeding, but that takes a huge toll on the animal, we don't consider its effect on the animal beyond its ability to live to give us that milk. Once again, we treat them as objects rather than animals that should have their own considerations. *One only needs to look as far as dog breeding to see an example of how much selective breeding can screw with an animal. It's strange though, your post brings me close to my initial thoughts that lead me to veganism... where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? There aren't any laws protecting them which aren't self enforced (the Animal Welfare Act explicitly excludes farm animals). I cannot agree that there is a workable solution except moving past this system, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I've seen many posts from dairy farmers turning away from the industry and going vegan, becoming champions for the cause, you seem like a nice and reasonable person, hope someday to see you in the tofu aisle! [1] http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/2006b/Breeding.html http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/... [2] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a-gallon-Farm-bill-impasse-could-send-US-off-dairy-cliff http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a....
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  ...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative. I actually expect this trend to be pushed by the meat industry, not fought by it. Nobody wants to be in the animal-husbandry business less than the factory farms, because animals are expensive and inconvenient to deal with. It's going to make for a fascinating socioeconomic transition.

marricks 11y ago

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2]. As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed by the three fold increase in milk production! Sure, it's selective breeding, but that takes a huge toll on the animal, we don't consider its effect on the animal beyond its ability to live to give us that milk. Once again, we treat them as objects rather than animals that should have their own considerations. *One only needs to look as far as dog breeding to see an example of how much selective breeding can screw with an animal. It's strange though, your post brings me close to my initial thoughts that lead me to veganism... where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? There aren't any laws protecting them which aren't self enforced (the Animal Welfare Act explicitly excludes farm animals). I cannot agree that there is a workable solution except moving past this system, thanks for your thoughts and reply. I've seen many posts from dairy farmers turning away from the industry and going vegan, becoming champions for the cause, you seem like a nice and reasonable person, hope someday to see you in the tofu aisle! [1] http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/2006b/Breeding.html http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/... [2] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a-gallon-Farm-bill-impasse-could-send-US-off-dairy-cliff http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a....

CamperBob2 11y ago
...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative. I actually expect this trend to be pushed by the meat industry, not fought by it. Nobody wants to be in the animal-husbandry business less than the factory farms, because animals are expensive and inconvenient to deal with. It's going to make for a fascinating socioeconomic transition.