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I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote, The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small perc

I'll pull out one part of your comment to ask a question: you wrote, The USA education system does allow their top kids fly freely(which is really a small percentage) and I would like to ask, where does that happen? What place in the United States allows the top kids to fly freely? I ask, because I interact online most regularly with parents who have children identified as gifted children through regional Talent Search programs or specialized summer mathematics programs or the Davidson Institute for Talent Development.[1] I only very rarely hear of "top kids" (by any reasonable definition of top kids) whose parents report that the USA education system allows their children to fly freely. I just looked at your Hacker News user profile to see if you identify what country you are from. It is unusual enough here in the United States to say "USA education system" rather than "U.S. education system" or "United States education system" that I wonder whether you have ever experienced the education system here in the United States during your own education. On my part, I get the distinct impression that the United States education system underperforms for all learners in its care,[2] although not as badly as, say, Mexico's or India's. [1] http://www.davidsongifted.org/ http://www.davidsongifted.org/ [2] http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-results-mathematics.html http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/international-results-... http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-mediocre/ http://educationnext.org/when-the-best-is-mediocre/

Avshalom 11y ago
So keep in mind this was a decade ago and I'm sure it's changed but when I was in highschool in Florida you could go Dual-Enrollment and the district would pay for any class and reimburse you for books. I went to college with my first three semesters of college finished. While that was particularly open handed many districts will at least pay tuition for what ever advanced classes you can test into as long as it fits the curriculum (X english classes, Y math classes...). My local community college implies that sophmores and above (including home schoolers) can take any 1000 level or above class free (although the highschool gets veto power). http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-the-best-deal-in-town http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-th...
animefan 11y ago
As someone who was identified as gifted and talented in Australia, I think the parents often want things that are not particularly useful, eg early university entry, or their goal is some special university program. In high school I did training for the international mathematics Olympiads (which was too much work but otherwise a great program) and that was all the extra input I really needed. In university I did an ordinary math program, and my parents really didn't understand that the math department is more than capable of challenging high iq students. I feel that the system let me "fligh freely" because I always had access to challenging material if I wanted it (I also did debating). However my parents weren't satisfied because they wanted to be provided with a clear path from my youthful intelligence to future success.
fspeech 11y ago
Yes I can confirm that US high schools (public ones at least) do not let their top kids fly freely. I have a high schooler who made USAJMO as an eighth grader (and later USAMO/MOSP as a ninth grader). The high school, which is a top area school, just did not care and insisted that he took Algebra II with the rest of the 9th graders. The school counselor might have been well meaning but was more likely just following the rules. At least the teacher had the wisdom to excuse him from homework after recognizing that he is the real deal, but the system is inflexible enough that he had to sit through the class instead of getting adjusted to one more appropriate for him. His friend who is a national winner of USAMO had to do the same thing in a different school, to the annoyance of the algebra teacher there (how do you even teach a USAMO winner in an Algebra II class?).
DogeLord 11y ago
I believe when he said "fly freely", it compares to countries like India/China. And you said the US system underperforms for all learner in its care.. Well you might have been right technically, in the way that exercising 30 minutes a day is not as good as say a bodybuilder's workout routine. Personal experience here-> The High School I went to in China has this following schedule- Weekday 6am wake up, 7am early self study/english pronunciation practice, 8~5 classes, 5~7 break time, 730~10 homework/ask teachers stuff, 1030 go to bed. Saturday Morning to noon, none stop exams to evaluate our progress. Go home in the afternoon. Sunday Return school before 7pm Although this is my personal experience, almost all the competitive high schools in china follows similar schedule. In comparison the US system grant much more freedom, I moved there at 10th grade and I must say it is much more liberating in choosing what I wanted to do. I do not think many schools in China let you pick the courses you want to study, or have as many (or any) college level courses. And for once starting your own club/participating in athletic activities is no longer "waste of time" and is recognized by college administration. I am only comparing High schools because that's the only system I have expediences of on both sides.
ausjke 11y ago
I meant USA does not test each kid in school every month, sometimes weekly, to grade and measure their progress,to make sure they get great scores on STEM and all the related subjects, until they entered into college, that approach certainly can smother top kids' creativity and curiosity. Less frequent milestone check-ups could give the top talent enough space to develop at their own pace "freely", mostly sponsored by their parents though(so really, not the public education system), I think that's what happens in US. No place that has the perfect system to produce a strong engineering population while set the top kids free, but at a quantity level, China/India system will produce more IT workers and engineers(normalized), which is key to the future.

Avshalom 11y ago

So keep in mind this was a decade ago and I'm sure it's changed but when I was in highschool in Florida you could go Dual-Enrollment and the district would pay for any class and reimburse you for books. I went to college with my first three semesters of college finished. While that was particularly open handed many districts will at least pay tuition for what ever advanced classes you can test into as long as it fits the curriculum (X english classes, Y math classes...). My local community college implies that sophmores and above (including home schoolers) can take any 1000 level or above class free (although the highschool gets veto power). http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-the-best-deal-in-town http://www.cnm.edu/depts/outreach/dual-credit/dual-credit-th...

animefan 11y ago

As someone who was identified as gifted and talented in Australia, I think the parents often want things that are not particularly useful, eg early university entry, or their goal is some special university program. In high school I did training for the international mathematics Olympiads (which was too much work but otherwise a great program) and that was all the extra input I really needed. In university I did an ordinary math program, and my parents really didn't understand that the math department is more than capable of challenging high iq students. I feel that the system let me "fligh freely" because I always had access to challenging material if I wanted it (I also did debating). However my parents weren't satisfied because they wanted to be provided with a clear path from my youthful intelligence to future success.

fspeech 11y ago

Yes I can confirm that US high schools (public ones at least) do not let their top kids fly freely. I have a high schooler who made USAJMO as an eighth grader (and later USAMO/MOSP as a ninth grader). The high school, which is a top area school, just did not care and insisted that he took Algebra II with the rest of the 9th graders. The school counselor might have been well meaning but was more likely just following the rules. At least the teacher had the wisdom to excuse him from homework after recognizing that he is the real deal, but the system is inflexible enough that he had to sit through the class instead of getting adjusted to one more appropriate for him. His friend who is a national winner of USAMO had to do the same thing in a different school, to the annoyance of the algebra teacher there (how do you even teach a USAMO winner in an Algebra II class?).

DogeLord 11y ago

I believe when he said "fly freely", it compares to countries like India/China. And you said the US system underperforms for all learner in its care.. Well you might have been right technically, in the way that exercising 30 minutes a day is not as good as say a bodybuilder's workout routine. Personal experience here-> The High School I went to in China has this following schedule- Weekday 6am wake up, 7am early self study/english pronunciation practice, 8~5 classes, 5~7 break time, 730~10 homework/ask teachers stuff, 1030 go to bed. Saturday Morning to noon, none stop exams to evaluate our progress. Go home in the afternoon. Sunday Return school before 7pm Although this is my personal experience, almost all the competitive high schools in china follows similar schedule. In comparison the US system grant much more freedom, I moved there at 10th grade and I must say it is much more liberating in choosing what I wanted to do. I do not think many schools in China let you pick the courses you want to study, or have as many (or any) college level courses. And for once starting your own club/participating in athletic activities is no longer "waste of time" and is recognized by college administration. I am only comparing High schools because that's the only system I have expediences of on both sides.

ausjke 11y ago

I meant USA does not test each kid in school every month, sometimes weekly, to grade and measure their progress,to make sure they get great scores on STEM and all the related subjects, until they entered into college, that approach certainly can smother top kids' creativity and curiosity. Less frequent milestone check-ups could give the top talent enough space to develop at their own pace "freely", mostly sponsored by their parents though(so really, not the public education system), I think that's what happens in US. No place that has the perfect system to produce a strong engineering population while set the top kids free, but at a quantity level, China/India system will produce more IT workers and engineers(normalized), which is key to the future.