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Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many peopl

by rosser 11y ago

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking people from talking about it — you know, "prior restraint" — is emphatically not the solution.

troym 11y ago
> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html From the survey: `In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.` If we can trust the survey results, methodology, etc, the minority of which you speak is 46%.
- cafard 11y ago
  One would need to know what the misconduct consisted of, in order to judge what this means. Is the misconduct accepting free coffee at the 7-11, or is it beating a prisoner?
- rosser 11y ago
  I'm specifically making a distinction between the bad actors — people who commit an overtly abusive act — and the "thin blue line", which is cops who are aware of the abuses, but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen. The 46% you cite numbers among the latter. For all you know, though, the people those 46% are talking about having seen committing "misconduct" are the same folks over and over. I'm not downplaying police abuses, and I'm not excusing the people who don't speak up and call it out when it occurs, but I think it remains useful to make a distinction between them.
  - troym 11y ago
    I tend to agree with you and I understand the distinction you're making. And yet: > but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen. That's lying. They're accomplices to the abuse and worse, perpetual enablers of it. Apologies for veering the thread off-topic. I'm just bothered by the notion of "it's just a few bad apples."
    - rosser 11y ago
      Part of the value of making the distinction, IMO, is that the "accomplices", as you call them, are probably an easier and more effective place to attack the problem. Get people who aren't bad actors to speak out about (or even against) the bad actors, and the latter will have to modify their behavior, or will leave the force one way or another.
cwbrandsma 11y ago
That is the argument I heard from many of the dairyman in this state. Unfortunately, most are already dealing with the point of "you are guilty until we say you aren't -- which will be never". You can't win arguments against anonymous opponents.
eevilspock 11y ago
"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with." - from http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer So if K.L. Williams, "who has trained thousands of officers around the country in use of force", is right, the 15% bad actors (your "overwhelming minority") turns into 85%. That is consistent with not just the survey troym links to, but the experiences described by those people victimized by police injustice. I doubt many HN readers are in that population.
- mattm 11y ago
  When I was teaching English in China, one student got locked out of his apartment. Apparently, the city has authorized locksmiths you can call to open your apartment after proving that it's you. So he called one and was shocked at how quickly the locksmith could open the door. The locksmith said to him "Locks aren't for people like me. If someone wants to break in, a lock isn't going to stop them. 15% of people will try to steal no matter what you do. 15% will never take anything even if you leave your door while open. Locks are for that 70% in the middle that will steal if the opportunity is right."
- rosser 11y ago
  I'd really like to see some citations for that assertion. Pending that, I'm going to file his claim under "73.6% of statistics are made up on the spot."

by rosser 11y ago

troym 11y ago

> that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population This survey contradicts that assertion: http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html http://www.aele.org/loscode2000.html From the survey: `In response to “Please describe the first time you witnessed misconduct by another employee but took no action,” 46 percent (532) advised they had witnessed misconduct by another employee, but concealed what they knew.` If we can trust the survey results, methodology, etc, the minority of which you speak is 46%.

cafard 11y ago
One would need to know what the misconduct consisted of, in order to judge what this means. Is the misconduct accepting free coffee at the 7-11, or is it beating a prisoner?
rosser 11y ago
I'm specifically making a distinction between the bad actors — people who commit an overtly abusive act — and the "thin blue line", which is cops who are aware of the abuses, but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen. The 46% you cite numbers among the latter. For all you know, though, the people those 46% are talking about having seen committing "misconduct" are the same folks over and over. I'm not downplaying police abuses, and I'm not excusing the people who don't speak up and call it out when it occurs, but I think it remains useful to make a distinction between them.
- troym 11y ago
  I tend to agree with you and I understand the distinction you're making. And yet: > but conceal or misrepresent what they've seen. That's lying. They're accomplices to the abuse and worse, perpetual enablers of it. Apologies for veering the thread off-topic. I'm just bothered by the notion of "it's just a few bad apples."
  - rosser 11y ago
    Part of the value of making the distinction, IMO, is that the "accomplices", as you call them, are probably an easier and more effective place to attack the problem. Get people who aren't bad actors to speak out about (or even against) the bad actors, and the latter will have to modify their behavior, or will leave the force one way or another.

cwbrandsma 11y ago

That is the argument I heard from many of the dairyman in this state. Unfortunately, most are already dealing with the point of "you are guilty until we say you aren't -- which will be never". You can't win arguments against anonymous opponents.

eevilspock 11y ago

"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with." - from http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer So if K.L. Williams, "who has trained thousands of officers around the country in use of force", is right, the 15% bad actors (your "overwhelming minority") turns into 85%. That is consistent with not just the survey troym links to, but the experiences described by those people victimized by police injustice. I doubt many HN readers are in that population.

mattm 11y ago
When I was teaching English in China, one student got locked out of his apartment. Apparently, the city has authorized locksmiths you can call to open your apartment after proving that it's you. So he called one and was shocked at how quickly the locksmith could open the door. The locksmith said to him "Locks aren't for people like me. If someone wants to break in, a lock isn't going to stop them. 15% of people will try to steal no matter what you do. 15% will never take anything even if you leave your door while open. Locks are for that 70% in the middle that will steal if the opportunity is right."
rosser 11y ago
I'd really like to see some citations for that assertion. Pending that, I'm going to file his claim under "73.6% of statistics are made up on the spot."