8 ms·

How Not to Design a World Without Borders (2014)

21 points by monort 11y ago

Asbostos 11y ago
They begin with an odd argument made by the US - Ecuador's open borders have increased human trafficing. The concept of human trafficing only exists because there are closed borders that people want to cross. If the US opened its borders, it would surely have a huge influx of people, but it would also stop having human trafficing. The other neighboring countries claiming that Ecuador's policies were destabilizing the whole area could perhaps have meant "Those bad people are escaping the confines of their bad-people country and spreading to ours" Sarcastic comparison: Maybe the US should close its internal borders with high crime neighborhoods so those bad people can remain trapped among their deserving neighbors instead of robbing the more privileged classes.
- rgbrenner 11y ago
  You're using "human trafficking" to mean illegal migration. When in fact it actually means: the trade of humans, most commonly for the purpose of sexual slavery, forced labor or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others. This may encompass providing a spouse in the context of forced marriage,[3][4][5] or the extraction of organs or tissues,[6][7] including for surrogacy and ova removal. Human trafficking is a crime against the person because of the violation of the victim's rights of movement through coercion and because of their commercial exploitation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking
  - Asbostos 11y ago
    Thanks for the correction. In that case it doesn't really seem to be an issue of borders. People can surely be exploited in those ways within their own country too.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
  - notahacker 11y ago
    It's worth pointing out that trafficking operations, like drug cartels, take advantage of the legal situation. That's not to say that if borders were fully open impoverished foreigners wouldn't still be exploited by organisations promising wonderful opportunities overseas with an arrangement that is effectively indentured servitude (see: conditions attached to migrant workers in some Middle Eastern countries). But closed borders and restrictive visa rules mean that people desperate to leave their own country don't have the option of simply saving for a plane ticket, and trafficked people have the fear of punishment for their illegal status hanging over their heads which makes them that little bit more afraid to try to escape their situation.
  - smoe 11y ago
    From the same Wikipedia article: "Sexual trafficking includes coercing a migrant into a sexual act as a condition of allowing or arranging the migration. […] Trafficked women and children, for instance, are often promised work in the domestic or service industry, but instead are sometimes taken to brothels where they are required to undertake sex work, while their passports and other identification papers confiscated." Here the closed boarders play a role. When those people won't even try to contact the police because of beeing afraid that they will be put in jail and then sent back, the closed boarders are a good thing for human traffickers, even though it makes getting in and out of a country a bit harder. Also I could imagine, if the boarders where open, people would be more likely to just try their luck in an other country than getting in touch with some creep promising wonderland for a fee.
    - mattlutze 11y ago
      I don't think rgbrenner's response was in favor of closed borders, but in correcting the previous poster's confusion over what human trafficking is. As it were, if the borders were open folks wouldn't have to use shady agencies and immigration traffickers to get in at all, but could rather just save some money for a ticket and finding a job.
- jotm 11y ago
  | Maybe the US should close its internal borders with high crime neighborhoods so those bad people can remain trapped among their deserving neighbors instead of robbing the more privileged classes. Sadly, that is exactly the case. It is nearly impossible for people with no or bad credit history and bad records to move to a better neighborhood, so they stay "out there", with the other "criminals". How do you expect them to change if there's no one better to help them?
  - Asbostos 11y ago
    I guess you're right. Town planning enforces this too with section sizes too big for low-priced high density housing. Thus forcing poor people out. What's weird, is people often complain these segregations are unfair or keep people trapped in poverty but don't think twice about the segregation between countries. Those Colombians kind of are being suppressed by the US and everyone else except Ecuador briefly.
timedoctor 11y ago
Less than 100 years ago it was considered NORMAL to segregate black people and prevent access to certain locations in the US. Now it's illegal and considered totally unacceptable. Is it possible that in the future it will be considered as unacceptable and illegal to discriminate based on your country of origin? I mean why should a black person from the US have access to different locations than a black person from Nigeria? Or why should a white person from France have access to different locations than a white person from Ukraine?
- jmnicolas 11y ago
  Because a white person from Ukraine will work for cheaper than me, a white person from France. How long before it's impossible to work for a decent salary (which are already not that decent in France). And there's the problem of welfare, look at what's happening in Calais. All the illegal immigrants from Africa are trying to reach England from this French Port since they believe England is the best welfare state. So yeah I agree we're all brothers, but I'd rather see French in France and Ukrainians in Ukraine.
  - ignoramous 11y ago
    As a matter of national security, some things may never come to pass. But as the world progresses towards a better future, the boundaries will vanish, if they haven't already. Who would have thought the EU was possible just 60 years back? The European countries have a long history of wars and hostile relationships stretching from the medivial ages up to 1945. The case of cheap labour isn't a valid argument anymore. If the value-add is significant, then certain things will happen, thanks to the capitalistic nature of businesses in the West.
  - realusername 11y ago
    I agree, people are always saying they want to abolish borders but in reality, there are hard consequences to that, you need to have some border for countries to improve. Otherwise everyone is just going to move somewhere else with a better quality of life and this is providing a race to the bottom with giant slums in those places whereas some countries would be almost empty because everyone would move.
anti-shill 11y ago
the corporate media always speaks with reverence regarding the idea of doing away with borders....gosh, I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that the corporate media is funded by advertising purchases made by big business, the same big business that buys labor.

21 points by monort 11y ago

They begin with an odd argument made by the US - Ecuador's open borders have increased human trafficing. The concept of human trafficing only exists because there are closed borders that people want to cross. If the US opened its borders, it would surely have a huge influx of people, but it would also stop having human trafficing. The other neighboring countries claiming that Ecuador's policies were destabilizing the whole area could perhaps have meant "Those bad people are escaping the confines of their bad-people country and spreading to ours" Sarcastic comparison: Maybe the US should close its internal borders with high crime neighborhoods so those bad people can remain trapped among their deserving neighbors instead of robbing the more privileged classes.

rgbrenner 11y ago
You're using "human trafficking" to mean illegal migration. When in fact it actually means: the trade of humans, most commonly for the purpose of sexual slavery, forced labor or commercial sexual exploitation for the trafficker or others. This may encompass providing a spouse in the context of forced marriage,[3][4][5] or the extraction of organs or tissues,[6][7] including for surrogacy and ova removal. Human trafficking is a crime against the person because of the violation of the victim's rights of movement through coercion and because of their commercial exploitation. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking
- Asbostos 11y ago
  Thanks for the correction. In that case it doesn't really seem to be an issue of borders. People can surely be exploited in those ways within their own country too.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- notahacker 11y ago
  It's worth pointing out that trafficking operations, like drug cartels, take advantage of the legal situation. That's not to say that if borders were fully open impoverished foreigners wouldn't still be exploited by organisations promising wonderful opportunities overseas with an arrangement that is effectively indentured servitude (see: conditions attached to migrant workers in some Middle Eastern countries). But closed borders and restrictive visa rules mean that people desperate to leave their own country don't have the option of simply saving for a plane ticket, and trafficked people have the fear of punishment for their illegal status hanging over their heads which makes them that little bit more afraid to try to escape their situation.
- smoe 11y ago
  From the same Wikipedia article: "Sexual trafficking includes coercing a migrant into a sexual act as a condition of allowing or arranging the migration. […] Trafficked women and children, for instance, are often promised work in the domestic or service industry, but instead are sometimes taken to brothels where they are required to undertake sex work, while their passports and other identification papers confiscated." Here the closed boarders play a role. When those people won't even try to contact the police because of beeing afraid that they will be put in jail and then sent back, the closed boarders are a good thing for human traffickers, even though it makes getting in and out of a country a bit harder. Also I could imagine, if the boarders where open, people would be more likely to just try their luck in an other country than getting in touch with some creep promising wonderland for a fee.
  - mattlutze 11y ago
    I don't think rgbrenner's response was in favor of closed borders, but in correcting the previous poster's confusion over what human trafficking is. As it were, if the borders were open folks wouldn't have to use shady agencies and immigration traffickers to get in at all, but could rather just save some money for a ticket and finding a job.
jotm 11y ago
| Maybe the US should close its internal borders with high crime neighborhoods so those bad people can remain trapped among their deserving neighbors instead of robbing the more privileged classes. Sadly, that is exactly the case. It is nearly impossible for people with no or bad credit history and bad records to move to a better neighborhood, so they stay "out there", with the other "criminals". How do you expect them to change if there's no one better to help them?
- Asbostos 11y ago
  I guess you're right. Town planning enforces this too with section sizes too big for low-priced high density housing. Thus forcing poor people out. What's weird, is people often complain these segregations are unfair or keep people trapped in poverty but don't think twice about the segregation between countries. Those Colombians kind of are being suppressed by the US and everyone else except Ecuador briefly.

timedoctor 11y ago

Less than 100 years ago it was considered NORMAL to segregate black people and prevent access to certain locations in the US. Now it's illegal and considered totally unacceptable. Is it possible that in the future it will be considered as unacceptable and illegal to discriminate based on your country of origin? I mean why should a black person from the US have access to different locations than a black person from Nigeria? Or why should a white person from France have access to different locations than a white person from Ukraine?

jmnicolas 11y ago
Because a white person from Ukraine will work for cheaper than me, a white person from France. How long before it's impossible to work for a decent salary (which are already not that decent in France). And there's the problem of welfare, look at what's happening in Calais. All the illegal immigrants from Africa are trying to reach England from this French Port since they believe England is the best welfare state. So yeah I agree we're all brothers, but I'd rather see French in France and Ukrainians in Ukraine.
- ignoramous 11y ago
  As a matter of national security, some things may never come to pass. But as the world progresses towards a better future, the boundaries will vanish, if they haven't already. Who would have thought the EU was possible just 60 years back? The European countries have a long history of wars and hostile relationships stretching from the medivial ages up to 1945. The case of cheap labour isn't a valid argument anymore. If the value-add is significant, then certain things will happen, thanks to the capitalistic nature of businesses in the West.
- realusername 11y ago
  I agree, people are always saying they want to abolish borders but in reality, there are hard consequences to that, you need to have some border for countries to improve. Otherwise everyone is just going to move somewhere else with a better quality of life and this is providing a race to the bottom with giant slums in those places whereas some countries would be almost empty because everyone would move.

anti-shill 11y ago

the corporate media always speaks with reverence regarding the idea of doing away with borders....gosh, I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that the corporate media is funded by advertising purchases made by big business, the same big business that buys labor.