3 ms·

A year-long web app effort that made absolutely no money

6 points by prawn 11y ago

corkill 11y ago
"I felt like I didn’t want to just be writing software to other people’s specs — I wanted to write software that I wanted to use and enjoy." Do you use this software and enjoy it? if so you have actually succeeded at your original goal. If you want to build a business, then your going to need to build software that other people want to pay for. Discovering who these people are and what they need is called customer development. The easiest way to do this is just call people when they are most interested (e.g. right after they signup or inquire on your site). https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/validating_product_ideas https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/validatin... "Yes, the books said just tweet about it to your thousands of followers and they will come flocking." Please burn these books and instead see http://startupclass.samaltman.com/ http://startupclass.samaltman.com/ (free) thefoundation.com (paid but lots of free content) Lots of people never generate any revenue their first year attempting something new, but I'm sure if you change your approach and learn from people that have done it before you can turn things around a lot. I'm sure you can already tackle any of the technical challenges, time to learn about the business ones (if you want a business).
- cyberferret 11y ago
  Thanks for the tips and the links. Yes, it looks like my original goal was a little too self centric. I do have a ton of other app ideas based on my work with my client base, but I guess I wanted to pick the easiest one first so I could get it off the ground quickly and use it as a test case for the best way to launch and market (and sustain) it. So far it has been a hard lesson, but the feedback so far from my blog post has been great.
paulhauggis 11y ago
A couple of problems I see: 1) $5/month is not sustainable for a company. $15/month is better (which I see you tried later on). 2) You really shouldn't have gotten rid of a 25 year old consulting company. That was a really bad idea You should have used your clients to figure out a product that they need and used them as your first beta users. Most products aren't an instant success. It took me 3 years before I started seeing some sort of profit with my current company. It took another year before I was able to quit all of my consulting gigs.
- prawn 11y ago
  Did it take you three years to make a single dollar though? This to me was a story of someone who put in so much effort and time but made early mistakes that compounded later. I found it posted on Reddit - the author was wondering if they should shelve the app and try something else, or persist. (My strong vote would be to drop it and try something else.)
- cyberferret 11y ago
  True - I have read in a lot of places that $20/month seems to be the 'magic number' for a sustainable web app. Because this one is so simple, and really has been set up as a test case for future (larger) web apps, I was happy to just get to the stage where I could have a few hundred paying users @ $5/mth. That would easily pay the back end hosting bills and give me some spare cash to experiment with different forms of online marketing.
prawn 11y ago
I am the submitter, not the author. I've tweeted the author in case they would like to head over here and respond to comments.
cyberferret 11y ago
Hi there - I am the author of the above blog post on Medium. Thanks to @prawn for posting it here on Hacker News. I am happy to hear ant criticism or answer any questions anyone has.
- prawn 11y ago
  If you were reluctant to drop it immediately, some things you could try: - no free trial or monthly option, but $40 one-off - market more heavily that it's a tax write-off - $5/mo base plan, $7/mo unlimited cars (makes $7 seem like a better deal) - run it past motoring associations or small business groups - offer free accounts to business owners if they promote it to employees
  - cyberferret 11y ago
    Great ideas! We did sneak in an option for a 'one off' payment in amongst the monthly subscriptions, but it may be too confusing for people to understand. Perhaps we will look at dropping subscription and just going one off? The other ideas are intriguing. Never thought about making the unlimited plan closer in price to the base plan as a mental exercise in perceived value. May try that before going free etc. I have posted about the web app in a couple of small business forums - really just trying to identify and pick away at the niches, but I may approach wider industry/automobile groups as well to see. In all our targeted advertising (FB. Twitter etc.) I have always narrowed down the focus to small business, freelancers, solo entrepreneurs etc. in the hope of hitting our target market. Perhaps I have been TOO narrow though?!? There could be a target market that I have missed altogether?
phlandis 11y ago
Read the resources on YC. Sounds like too much marketing and not enough focus on product.
- cyberferret 11y ago
  Agreed. Well, probably not enough focus on 'pre marketing' and doing a full study of the potential market before embarking on the development stage...
fractallyte 11y ago
Instead of marketing to a general audience, I'd approach the people who really might need something like this: owners of vehicle fleets (haulage trucks, rental cars), and companies that send their workers out on the road (consultancies, sales). In other words: B2B rather than B2C. The app could be tailored to any of those particular markets (and relaunched under different names, if necessary). If there's any existing competition, then you know you're onto something! Lastly, re-examine how other 'receipt' apps do their data entry. IMO, it's easier for the user to photograph a till receipt or fuel pump meter readout and have the system magically convert that into data.
- cyberferret 11y ago
  Thanks for the suggestion. Based on yours and other feedback, we may look at approaching either corporate fleet manager or accountants to act as a bit of a 'reseller channel' for us to spread the word amongst their workers/clients. I think targeting the freelancer/small business person directly was not as effective as I thought.

6 points by prawn 11y ago

"I felt like I didn’t want to just be writing software to other people’s specs — I wanted to write software that I wanted to use and enjoy." Do you use this software and enjoy it? if so you have actually succeeded at your original goal. If you want to build a business, then your going to need to build software that other people want to pay for. Discovering who these people are and what they need is called customer development. The easiest way to do this is just call people when they are most interested (e.g. right after they signup or inquire on your site). https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/validating_product_ideas https://training.kalzumeus.com/newsletters/archive/validatin... "Yes, the books said just tweet about it to your thousands of followers and they will come flocking." Please burn these books and instead see http://startupclass.samaltman.com/ http://startupclass.samaltman.com/ (free) thefoundation.com (paid but lots of free content) Lots of people never generate any revenue their first year attempting something new, but I'm sure if you change your approach and learn from people that have done it before you can turn things around a lot. I'm sure you can already tackle any of the technical challenges, time to learn about the business ones (if you want a business).

cyberferret 11y ago
Thanks for the tips and the links. Yes, it looks like my original goal was a little too self centric. I do have a ton of other app ideas based on my work with my client base, but I guess I wanted to pick the easiest one first so I could get it off the ground quickly and use it as a test case for the best way to launch and market (and sustain) it. So far it has been a hard lesson, but the feedback so far from my blog post has been great.

paulhauggis 11y ago

A couple of problems I see: 1) $5/month is not sustainable for a company. $15/month is better (which I see you tried later on). 2) You really shouldn't have gotten rid of a 25 year old consulting company. That was a really bad idea You should have used your clients to figure out a product that they need and used them as your first beta users. Most products aren't an instant success. It took me 3 years before I started seeing some sort of profit with my current company. It took another year before I was able to quit all of my consulting gigs.

prawn 11y ago
Did it take you three years to make a single dollar though? This to me was a story of someone who put in so much effort and time but made early mistakes that compounded later. I found it posted on Reddit - the author was wondering if they should shelve the app and try something else, or persist. (My strong vote would be to drop it and try something else.)
cyberferret 11y ago
True - I have read in a lot of places that $20/month seems to be the 'magic number' for a sustainable web app. Because this one is so simple, and really has been set up as a test case for future (larger) web apps, I was happy to just get to the stage where I could have a few hundred paying users @ $5/mth. That would easily pay the back end hosting bills and give me some spare cash to experiment with different forms of online marketing.

prawn 11y ago

I am the submitter, not the author. I've tweeted the author in case they would like to head over here and respond to comments.

cyberferret 11y ago

Hi there - I am the author of the above blog post on Medium. Thanks to @prawn for posting it here on Hacker News. I am happy to hear ant criticism or answer any questions anyone has.

prawn 11y ago
If you were reluctant to drop it immediately, some things you could try: - no free trial or monthly option, but $40 one-off - market more heavily that it's a tax write-off - $5/mo base plan, $7/mo unlimited cars (makes $7 seem like a better deal) - run it past motoring associations or small business groups - offer free accounts to business owners if they promote it to employees
- cyberferret 11y ago
  Great ideas! We did sneak in an option for a 'one off' payment in amongst the monthly subscriptions, but it may be too confusing for people to understand. Perhaps we will look at dropping subscription and just going one off? The other ideas are intriguing. Never thought about making the unlimited plan closer in price to the base plan as a mental exercise in perceived value. May try that before going free etc. I have posted about the web app in a couple of small business forums - really just trying to identify and pick away at the niches, but I may approach wider industry/automobile groups as well to see. In all our targeted advertising (FB. Twitter etc.) I have always narrowed down the focus to small business, freelancers, solo entrepreneurs etc. in the hope of hitting our target market. Perhaps I have been TOO narrow though?!? There could be a target market that I have missed altogether?

phlandis 11y ago

Read the resources on YC. Sounds like too much marketing and not enough focus on product.

cyberferret 11y ago
Agreed. Well, probably not enough focus on 'pre marketing' and doing a full study of the potential market before embarking on the development stage...

fractallyte 11y ago

Instead of marketing to a general audience, I'd approach the people who really might need something like this: owners of vehicle fleets (haulage trucks, rental cars), and companies that send their workers out on the road (consultancies, sales). In other words: B2B rather than B2C. The app could be tailored to any of those particular markets (and relaunched under different names, if necessary). If there's any existing competition, then you know you're onto something! Lastly, re-examine how other 'receipt' apps do their data entry. IMO, it's easier for the user to photograph a till receipt or fuel pump meter readout and have the system magically convert that into data.

cyberferret 11y ago
Thanks for the suggestion. Based on yours and other feedback, we may look at approaching either corporate fleet manager or accountants to act as a bit of a 'reseller channel' for us to spread the word amongst their workers/clients. I think targeting the freelancer/small business person directly was not as effective as I thought.