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A Moral Thesis in Defense of Surveillance People talk about civil freedoms, and they incorrectly attribute lack of surveillance the status of a civil freedom.
by 1arity 11y ago
A Moral Thesis in Defense of Surveillance
People talk about civil freedoms, and they incorrectly attribute lack of surveillance the status of a civil freedom. Freedom from observation is not freedom, freedom from incorrect enforcement is freedom.
Observation does not alter the moral scope of the individual, or the moral scope of the society. The individual's choice to limit their own moral scope under observation is what limits their scope. Surveillance does not affect the effective moral scope. Enforcement defines the ( effective ) moral scope ( the scope of actions that individuals can do without expecting hindrance from society ).
More comprehensive surveillance, leads to more clear enforcement, and more clear enforcement preserves in clearer definition those freedoms which are expressly not prohibited under the moral scope of a society. Surveillance is a tool of freedom. Specifically, a tool that contributes to preserving the freedom of action of individuals by contributing to more effective enforcement.
Without surveillance the machinery of enforcement can be more messily and liberally applied.
The fake left doctrines complain about surveillance as a tool of oppression.
Surveillance is seen in fact a tool of freedom, it is the light shone upon. The fake left doctrine has framed the entire debate incorrectly. Absence of surveillance is not a civil freedom, it is in fact an assurance of imprecisely applied enforcement.
Surveillance is a civil freedom.
Lawful enforcement is a civil freedom.
The remaining civil freedoms, known as "civil liberties" are those things permitted by an individual's effective moral scope.
Civil liberties, like morals in general, are not absolute, they are the choices made by societies to define themselves at a particular time and place. ( The color of absolutism is invoked because that promotes harmony -- if something is absolute it is beyond question. This is not a real admission of absolute, simply a shorthand for a society saying the debate about this way we define ourselves is complete, for now. )
Civil freedoms are distinguished from civil liberties in that civil freedoms include those acts, two of which are defined above, which effect whatever civil liberties are chosen. Civil freedoms include the machinery of creation of civil liberties.
The relationship between the state and the individual is somewhat akin to that between a parent and a baby. A baby is many things, and it is also helpless and chaotic without the governance of the parent. The parent's attentive observation ( surveillance ) of the baby presents the baby from harming itself. The state's attentive surveillance of the individuals presents them from harming themselves and others.
If large groups of individuals were capable of governing themselves in an ad-hoc fashion then...the internet, reddit, all of these places would be domains of inclusion, tolerance, peace, and respect. In fact, moderators, and moderators of moderators, and policies, and a central authority are required to prevent chaos and harm.
These things ( observations and controls -- surveillance and enforcement ) are the very enablers of the same liberties that
the fake left doctrine purports they destroy.
The fake left doctrines complain about surveillance as a tool of oppression. They use "freedom" in an intangible, absolute sense. A mythological "Perfect Freedom of the Individual", a delusion that fails to acknowledge the social context in which any freedom of action exists.
These fake left doctrines are founded on a delusion of a freedom unhindered by a social context. They are the fake left's dream of the mythical Powerful Individual, a delusion to compensate for the collective belief of the fake left of the powerlessness of the individual against some mythical oppressive force. In fact, for an individual exposed only to lawful restriction of their action, their only powerlessness is their fabrication of their own powerlessness.
The mythical oppressor of the fake left is in fact, not the lawful surveillance state, it is the individual that chooses to believe itself powerless. Surveillance is not oppression, incorrectly applied enforcement is the very definition of oppression. And as the net of surveillance is narrowed, a broader net of enforcement must be cast to protect individuals from themselves. The fundamental that the fake left has not grasped is that the trade off is not between "broader freedoms and broader surveillance" it is between "broader surveillance or broader enforcement", and broader enforcement, without the information, is going to be incorrectly applied.
- tux1968 11y agoWhat about the real left though? You've left their arguments completely unscathed.
- hyperdunc 11y agoThe surveillance-enabled "freedom" you describe relies on those doing the surveillance to be either nearly incorruptible or thoroughly monitored. And we know that in practice they are neither.
- aswanson 11y ago"The relationship between the state and the individual is somewhat akin to that between a parent and a baby. A baby is many things, and it is also helpless and chaotic without the governance of the parent. " Are you on coke? Have you read Huxley? Seriously, you sound like a well-scripted quote out of the most totalitarian bullshit I have ever come across. If that's original, no matter how dumb you are for saying it...salute.
- dang 11y ago> Are you on coke? Have you read Huxley? Seriously, you sound like a well-scripted quote out of the most totalitarian bullshit I have ever come across. If that's original, no matter how dumb you are for saying it...salute. Whoa. No matter how bad the comment you're replying to was, you've been on HN long enough to know that this is not ok here.
- TheOtherHobbes 11y agoMake absolutely all payment and money transfer records completely public, and then we can talk about freedom of surveillance.
- igravious 11y agoYour intriguing missive would be better served by not slandering your opponents. By which I mean, why say "fake" left without explaining what the left position is and what is fake about it. It's as if you expect us to be privy to some evolving thought process or conversation and that expectation is a little troublesome for me. But apart from that. Of course you come across as a little, (um, how do I put this delicately?) ... half-baked. Sorry! It's true. Like that old joke, you read 1984 as an instruction manual, not a warning? But seriously, surveillance is freedom. Like I say, intriguing. I've often wondered about the behaviour modifying properties of believing in an omniscient creator. I think you're pointing to something similar, except humans themselves are the ever-watching eyes and ears. I actually think you could be correct to some extent, the knowledge that someone is observing you does affect ones behaviour -- cf: chilling effect. Taking you at face value: counter-argument. 1) Adults are not dependent on the government in the way you describe. In modern society we are all dependent on each other. 2) Who watches the watchers becomes a very real problem and not one that has been solved. 3) We know empirically that total surveillance states don't last very long. Have we got it right this time? Let's see. If we have then human society has been changed utterly and political theorists will have a lot of work to do. 4) Lots of people (from the left and right) don't want to live in that kind of society, no matter the benefits. 5) I'm not convinced the good you put forward outweighs the obvious dangers, you'd have to present a much more coherent argument than the one you are presenting. I know you'll be shot down here but I find the intellectual challenge of responding to your position rewarding, so thanks for that. edit: thought of a sixth. 6) maybe some behaviours you want (like being able to speak out against injustices and corruption and so on) will be suppressed as well as the "bad" beahviours you want rid of.